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Can we have a Ukraine/ Russia/ Crimea thread for dummies?

977 replies

chicaguapa · 06/03/2014 11:47

In other words, could someone explain the situation in really simple terms please. I don't understand it but feel it's important and I should know what's going on.

And because DD(12) asked me this morning and I couldn't answer.

OP posts:
Hopefulgoat · 08/04/2014 22:40

How can the people of the South and East see these parties as representing their interests?

Well, the interim government solved this problem by naming the oligarch Taruta as governor of East Ukraine. Taruta is as corrupt as any other Ukrainian oligarch and owns most of industry there. He controls if not owns the Party of Regions. He finances all of it's activity.

Apparently Taruta got all he wanted from Kiev government and agreed to support it, so as far as he is concerned the problem is solved. For Kiev Eastern Ukraine is Taruta.

That is what Yats meant when he appealed to the 'elites' in Eastern Ukraine.

Ordinary people don't seem to have any voice, except on the streets.

Hopefulgoat · 08/04/2014 22:46

You are right Piglet, it doesn't work and you get something like Balkan's civil war, or Iraq and Libya sectarian violence. You don't get a stable democratic government, but a failed state.

I can't imagine how you could have a country in Europe where one part of the country worships Nazi collaborators and puts 4 neo Nazis in government, while the other part had their grand-grandfathers killed and grandmothers raped by those collaborators and don't want anything to do with that government.

PigletJohn · 08/04/2014 22:53

Or, indeed, a country where millions died under the Soviets, and some of the population want to join its successors in the Russian Republics.

Hopefulgoat · 08/04/2014 22:55

The BBC map clearly shows how at the last elections the West of Ukraine voted more than 70% for Timoshenko, while the East voted more than 70% for Yanukovych. Basically different region voted for different candidates. This time the divisions might to be even starker.
The divisions behind the Ukraine crisis

PigletJohn · 08/04/2014 22:59

Lets hope they can get on with the election without anyone managing to block or corrupt it.

Hopefulgoat · 08/04/2014 23:08

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PigletJohn · 08/04/2014 23:13

Goat, you must try to restrain yourself from calling me a Nazi. It is a lie and an insult. It is entirely untrue.

You know as well as I do that millions died in Ukraine and other European countries under the Soviets. However you resent me mentioning that the Nazis were not the only mass murderers, and you resort to insults.

Hopefulgoat · 08/04/2014 23:20

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beaglesaresweet · 09/04/2014 03:11

goat, please stop this 'neo-nazi' hysteria! This element is a tiny minority in Ukraine and are NOT going to be elected by the population. There are neo nazus in russia (even Putin admitted it recently) and other countries in europe.

Also stop the hysteria about Tymoshenko's comment about 'nuking russians' - first of all she said 'killed' (a rough version) not nuked (I speak the language), secondly there are NO nuclear weapons in Ukraine as PJ ponted out, Ukraine gave up those in return to having Crimea signed as part of it, in 1992. I don''t like Tymoshenko at all btw, but whether the tape was a fake or not, we'll never know. She is hankfully not popular - after stealing millions signing gas deal with Putin and then storing those in US banks, now she is turnking completely against Putin and using extremely aggressive language, the hypocrite.

Poroshenko is not just 'oligarch', he is extremely popular and out of all, the best candidate, as he is an economists and anti-violence and cerytainly not the Right sector - neither he is on the left. That's just what's needed. So youtrself and math and also claig shouldn;t comdemn him as 'yet another crook' -give him a bloody chance, he is considered a decent person, who personally went out there to stop the violence from both sides on maidan. He is not featuring in western media, instead he talks to people there.

Generally, give the new govt and Yatseniuk a chance, they hardly had any time to implement changes. Changes that haven't happened for 20yrs since Ussr collapsed.

Thank God for PJ on this thread. As to 'typical male' rhetoric questioning by Piglet - well, how about typical female hysteria!?
oh, and math, Soviet troops did go to Berlin and Eastern europe to defeat the Nazis - so far so great, but you overlook the little fact that they have never left those countries - troops were stationed there till the collapse of the USSR pretty much. So yes, of course they've invaded, and the hatred from (especially ) Baltic countries is understandable in the circ, don't you think? The Baltics who had nothing in common (language, culture) with Russia before it was give to Stalin by Hitler first then taken back , then gone back to ussr after WW2.

Another hysterical point - comparing Germany and Russia NOW, math. Russia still has ambitions to reinstate ussr but a softer version (Putin is open about it and bemoans the separation of countries whenever he gets a chance) - he has a vision for a new economically sound version BUT with his/russian political influence at the heart of it. Media in russia is AMAZINGLY akin to the soviet media with the agressive propaganda when nothing about russia gets criticised politically. Germany has free speech and debate and generally deep embarassement about the nazis. Russia has gone all nostalgic and patriotic about soviet times, even in Olympics ceremony, apart from massing the troops on ukraine's borders.

Piglet, thank you for your resilience! Without you threads like this become dangerous, the only picture emerging being that Ukrainians are dominated by neo nazis, and people are stupid enough to elect such a president. Btw, a new president will certainly diminish the number of brawling right wingers in parliament, but as it's trying to become a democratic country, they will have some representatives from all parties.
Oh, and brawling happened many times in Russian parliament too, and very common in previous Ukr parliaments, this is quite mild! many people are just not laid back types or sophisticated over there, some are not very educated but they aer there to represent varous social sectors (who see them as 'boys next door').

Another btw, Yatseniuk is not on the same page as Tymoshenko on many points, don't keep saying they aer from the same party, she was away for ages, and he has his own line. Both him and Poroshenko may not be perfect politicians iin your view, but they aer heck of a lot betterprospects than any previous presidents, who were ALL guided by Putin or predecessors (and sharing the stealing). EEC has laws you know, which new govt will be following now that they signed the first stage of agreement, whereas before now there was not a hint of democracy or law/rules for the elite of Ukraine.

beaglesaresweet · 09/04/2014 03:25

should have added to the last sentence, 'as this was convenient to Russian govt, who kept these corrupt rulers under the thumb by letting them steal.'

mathanxiety · 09/04/2014 05:44

From what I saw of the Maidan demonstrators, they did not need to break into an armoury as they were already armed. And there is still time for the Kiev government to deal with the citizens they have branded 'terrorists'. There is after all at least one presidential candidate who expressed the desire to nuke Russian speakers. I bet she feels the election can't come soon enough.

If she has a strong showing, and of course undoubtedly if she tops the poll, it will be very difficult for Russian speakers and ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine to feel much confidence in the government or in the good will of their fellow citizens.

Right now I think Russian speakers may ascribe the hesitance of the government to shoot the protestors in Donetsk and Kharkiv to the fact that Russia has expressed an interest in the fate of Russian speakers and of course ethnic Russians in Ukraine.

It is clear that the Kiev government is pulling its punches, but the fracas in parliament demonstrates that the Right is nipping at its heels and highly pissed off at what it sees in the east, so Kiev is under pressure from that quarter too, and of course breathing heaviest down the neck of the Kiev government is the EU and the US and the IMF, all looking for reform and some clear indication that all that money of theirs isn't going to disappear down some sinkhole -- they are not going to feel that sense of assurance as long as instability persists and as long as the Right marches around and bullies parliamentarians, on camera, they are right to worry. The Right does not owe western governments anything; in fact western governments that had an interest in 'regime change' in Kiev owe the Right for its pivotal role in the Maidan.

It is very possible that the EU, the US and the IMF are in fact silently grateful to Russia for preventing a bloody civil war in Ukraine.

mathanxiety · 09/04/2014 07:50

Thank you for clarifying that Tymoshenko only wanted to kill, not nuke Russian speakers, Beaglesaresweet.

I am sure Ukrainians can feel the love -- they speak the language after all.

Tymoshenko is riding what she hopes is a popular wave of nationalism and hatred of Russia -- any flag for a charlatan.

Maybe you have forgotten about the existence of US army bases in 156 countries throughout the world? They are there in such numbers because the US considers itself to be in a state of 'permanent war'. There are just over 250,000 military personnel stationed worldwide. There are approximately 66,000 military personnel stationed in Europe. The total number of 'military contractors' is not available.

If can stop frothing about hysteria for a while and reread my posts you will see I have pointed out repeatedly that Russia and Germany are significant trading partners and that both see European stability and continued trade as highly desirable. '

I would also like to correct your assertion about the Baltic countries: ...the hatred from (especially ) Baltic countries is understandable in the circ, don't you think? The Baltics who had nothing in common (language, culture) with Russia before it was give to Stalin by Hitler first then taken back , then gone back to ussr after WW2.
You must be unaware of the long linking of the history of Imperial Russia with the Baltic region, much of which from the 1720s to the end of WW1 was part of the Russian Empire, having passed from Swedish control. Those parts that did not come under Imperial Russian control in the 1720s fell into the hands of Prussia.
Under the terms of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact they came under Soviet control in 1939 (you know that alright). They then were subsumed into the Third Reich, but the Nazis were defeated and the Baltic states, which had enjoyed independence for the first few decades of the 20th century once came under Soviet rule, a fiat accepted by the UK and US. So much for a brief outline of history. Language and culture wise, I think you will find that there were many links between the Baltic region (in Imperial Russia) and Russia from the Imperial period all the way to the end of the Soviet period. Notable among the bonds between the two was the service as administrators and as Imperial Russian military officers of part of Baltic elites, and government service of various different kinds among other classes too.

Having watched the opening ceremony of the London games, I noted no pageant element depicting the devastating Irish famine of the 1840s that saw millions die of starvation or emigrate while food was exported, even though at that time London was the political capital and seat of government of Ireland, the United Kingdom was called 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland', and the two islands were a single political entity and had been since 1170. There was no exciting depiction of British gunboats firing shells into the heart of my own native city. No actors portraying a truckload of Black and Tans on a drunken rampage, shooting cattle on one grandfather's farm or raiding the home of my other grandparents, setting curtains in the diningroom alight while upstairs my grandmother lay in bed with a baby born that morning. I think it would have been riveting. U2's 'Sunday Bloody Sunday' could have provided an appropriately martial musical background. Nevertheless, it was a hugely entertaining opening ceremony and I forgive the director (whose name indicates his paternal ancestors may have been Irish fwiw) for any omissions.
Because that was then, and this is now.

I also think some more of the history of the People's Republic of China wouldn't have gone amiss in the Beijing Olympic extravaganza. Maybe a little about re-education camps or a re-enactment of the dramatic standoff in Tianamen Square (I am sure you know the one I mean). Or maybe some Falun Gong practitioners could have done their thing.

I actually found the Russian Olympic opening ceremony a most interesting piece because of the clear contrast between the mood and colour and music used to depict the period from the Revolution to WW2 when Stalin consolidated his hold on the USSR through a reign of terror, and that of the rest of the programme. The evocation of the pre-Revolutionary period was as pretty as the portrayal of the USSR from the end of the red/machine/war bit. I don't think there was any ambiguity in the portrayal of the early Soviet period. In fact, by means of the contrast, the Stalin period with its industrialisation, tractors, train, giant gears, etc., came off quite badly. (The Industrial Revolution shown in the London opening ceremony was a very jolly affair by comparison.)

I think the Russian Federation's support for the restoration of the Orthodox Church, its reintegration into public life, and especially the gesture of the rebuilding of the Cathedral of Christ our Saviour in Moscow indicate quite the opposite of any hankering after a reincarnation of the Soviet Union. I think the Pussy Riot episode has been misunderstood in the west because the rather secular west underestimates the abhorrence of Russia for the sacrilege and iconoclasm that accompanied the Russian Revolution and the Soviet period. Back to the Sochi Olympic opening ceremony (and thank you for bearing with me if you're still reading) the appearance of the onion dome motif at various points of the programme was a symbol that unified the distant past and the present, while it was signally absent from the mechanisation period, which I thought was significant.

In case you are accusing me of saying Tymoshenko and Yatseniuk are from the same party, again you are barking up the wrong tree.

Overall my comment to you is 'bless...' if you sincerely believe the upcoming election of Poroshenko is going to solve Ukraine's problems.

So far, all Ukrainians have shown a propensity for is vicious hatred of each other, a complete inability to try to work together for the common good, and a tendency to take to the streets with weapons, flags and cans of spray paint, instead of respecting and participating in good faith in the institutions and processes designed to give expression to the democratic spirit. Corruption is another salient tendency. Please don't try to tell me Poroshenko has managed to keep his hands clean and still make his millions.

Your post, especially your shrill insistence that the Baltic states have nothing in common with Russia, demonstrates how difficult the road ahead for Ukraine (and for the Baltic states) will be until everyone concerned accepts that Ukraine (and the Baltic states) are not, in fact, history's ultimate victims, but in many cases were willing henchmen of those powers they now vilify, selectively and separately.

You do not want to hear this I am sure, but until people start looking for what they have in common with each other and stop focusing on what tears them apart there will be no political future for Eastern Europe. Political culture and discourse that continuously screams about difference and separateness from some outside enemy is guaranteed to be backwards-looking and to shortchange the people of those countries where this sort of immature, narcissistic self-indulgence goes unchallenged.

It reminds me very much of the inability of the Republic of Ireland to distinguish between a 'burning love for Ireland' and a 'burning hatred of Britain'. The result of that failure was devastating for Ireland.

Hopefulgoat · 09/04/2014 13:12

The hatred from Baltic countries is understandable

The hatred is never understandable and should be challenged. Hatred is not consistent with democracy and human rights. EU is not built on hatred. Even Nigel Farage understands that. None of the Russians currently in Ukraine or even in Russia have killed Latvians in millions like Piglet suggests, but his rhetoric and the policy of Baltic states continuously focuses all grievances of history on Russians.

More-over they go on to argue that this is reason to deprive indigenous Russians in Latvia of the right to vote. This is a racist and fascist policy of depriving people of their human rights based on ethnic principle. Racism hidden behind the idea of collective guilt. Most repulsively, they brand is as 'democracy' because Latvians are in majority. This is wrong and we should challenge this interpretation of democracy in the Baltic states.

Hopefulgoat · 09/04/2014 13:19

Jews accounted for around 30% of Latvian population before WWII, but now are in low single digit. This is due to the Nazi Holocaust in which Latvian local SS was collaborating. However now Latvians honour their SS veterans as heros of struggle for independence. This is misguided and unacceptable for an EU country.

Baltic states need 'denazification'

PigletJohn · 09/04/2014 13:33

Returning to the 21st century, it is reported that the armed pro-Russian activists occupying government buildings in Luhansk have released 56 people following discussions.

It is reported that the pro-Russians have called on Putin to help them.

Tens of thousands of Russian troops remain massed on Ukraine's eastern border.

Hopefulgoat · 09/04/2014 13:35

Minimising and excusing the Russo-phobic nature and Nazi heritage of the Ukrainian nationalism just shows how misguided and divisive the political situation is in Ukraine. You cannot build a stable country on the policy of hating and humiliating your neignbour and depriving them from their rights. Because Russians, Jews and Ukrainians are neighbours in every street.

The Nazi idea of ethnic cleansing in obvious is nearly every expression of Ukrainian nationalism, that tends to always end with the assertion that if some people 'don't like the Ukrainian way' they should 'move out to Russia'. This is well explained at the end of this video. You need to face up to the fact that this idea is ethnic cleansing. This winner takes it all oppressive culture is fascist in nature. You cannot enforce it by true democratic means. Nationalists don't recognise equal rights of citizens who have different views with the nationalists. This is omni present in Ukrainian media and political discourse.

Hopefulgoat · 09/04/2014 13:41

The key point is that Russian speakers in Ukraine feel under pressure from Russo-phobia which is permeating large parts of Ukrainian population since president Yoyshenko made it the state policy. He elevated the Nazi Bandera into national hero. Timoshenko, a former PM and presidential candidate had to engage in Russo-phobic rethoric to gain popularity. Svoboda and Right Sector parties are in parliament. Moreover, Svoboda has 4 members in Yats government. After Maidan the Neo Nazi view if Ukrainian identity became mainstream as the Newsnight documentary shows.

The first act of Yats government was to attack the rights of Russian speakers. It is easy to minimise this from the comfort of London appartment. For those in Donetsk it means that they will be degraded into second rank citisens like the "non-citizens" in Latvia without the right to vote! President Youshenko made Bandera a national hero and allowed to build monuments for him, while for the majority of Ukrainians Bandera collaborators killed, tortured, pillaged and raped during the Nazi occupation. Every family in Ukraine has direct experience of the WWII and the occupation. A stable democracy in Ukraine is impossible if it's based on national identity linked to Bandera embraced by Maidan and Western Ukraine. It is totally unacceptable for a large part of the population.

For decades politicians and US diaspora were cultivating Banderism. Russo-phobia is infused in all of the nationalistic rhetoric. . It wouldn't be such a problem if it were just a few nutters on the margins. However large sections if Ukrainian youth are taken by the Badera nationalism which was continuously feed to Ukrainian people for the past 23 years in form of selective distortion of history, rebranding and converting all the grievances of complex history into anti Russian ethnic hatred and conveniently white washing Ukrainian own responsibility and complicity in the crimes of the holocaust and their full participation in Soviet regime.
Both victim and perpetrator - Ukraines problematic relationship to the Holocaust

The very fact that Piglet and Beagle consistently minimize and dismiss the Neo Nazi is peculiar. Beagle, I can show you your post where you write that Ukrainian youth worshiping Bandera don't even now about his Nazi crimes. Holocaust denial is a crime in Germany for a reason. After the WWII Germany underwent the process of 'denazification' to cleanse the nation from that ideology. Unfortunately this never happened in Western Ukraine, instead their Bandera and SS Galicia heritage was whipped up as a heroic national struggle. So now they can't separate the idea of Ukrainian nation from the racial hatred and fascist treatment of other ethnic groups.

You need to face that much of that ultra nationalism and all of the Russo-phobic rhetoric emanate from people liked to Galician and Volynian decent, where significant part of the population collaborated with Nazi and killed Jews, Ukrainians, Belorussians and Russians during the occupation, not to mentioned 100000 Poles gunned down by Bandera army. Those crimes should be acknowledged and left in the past. Instead Ukrainian youth is embracing this heritage and clinging to those ideas now because of propaganda of the last 23 years.

PigletJohn · 09/04/2014 13:42

I was very amused by goat's latest untruthful allegation, that I have suggested the Russians currently in Latvia or Russia have killed Latvians in millions.

Most of the Russians and their allies who committed mass murders are long dead, in the same way that most of the Nazis and their allies who committed mass murders, which goat so frequently tells us about, are also long dead.

I don't know why goat appears to believe that atrocities committed by one group are any more, or less, reprehensible than atrocities committed by the other.

Hopefulgoat · 09/04/2014 15:29

PigletJohn Tue 08-Apr-14 22:53:12
Or, indeed, a country where millions died under the Soviets, and some of the population want to join its successors in the Russian Republics.

Piglet, you conflate Soviet union with the Russian Federation. You transfer your grievances with the Soviet union onto the Ukrainian people who reject the current policies and the current government. You post above shows that.

Also earlier in the thread you insist on Russian-dominated Soviet Union, conflating a political system with people of certain ethnic group.

PigletJohn Tue 08-Apr-14 23:13:02
You know as well as I do that millions died in Ukraine and other European countries under the Soviets. However you resent me mentioning that the Nazis were not the only mass murderers, and you resort to insults.

  1. You do mention that Millions died in Europe in the above post, which comes directly after the previous one which links Soviet Union to "its successors in the Russian Republics", thus implying that Russian federation and ethnic Russians are mass murders. This is of course incorrect.

  2. I don't recent you mentioning the crimes of Stalin dictatorship but I do object to attributing guilt to people of Russian ethnicity. I noticed that you react when Bandera Nazism is mentioned by deviating into "Soviet crimes".

  3. Your persistent deviations into the grievances with Soviet Union when Bandera is mentioned imply that you believe Bandera collaboration with Nazi genocide was somehow justified. It was not. One crime doesn't justify another.

Bandera collaborators didn't have to kill, torture, rape and pillage in order to express disapproval of communism ans Stalin's terror or to aspire for independence. It was a choice they made voluntarily.

is happening in the present, it is a state policy since president Youshenko. It is fueling Russo-phobia and political division in Ukraine and this is why I am talking about it. It is very relevant to this crisis. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26468720

Resentment of Soviet Union is not a valid reason to justify denying people in Eastern Ukraine their rights because you perceive that "some of the population want to join its successors in the Russian Republic"

The latter quote for me is an expression of Russo-phobia. You may object to that, but this is my personal opinion and I am entitled to it.

You should resist crying offence when I take your assertions to task.

PigletJohn · 09/04/2014 15:42

Oh, goat, you are silly.

You litter your posts with frequent references to crimes of the past committed by nazis and their allies.

You bristle with indignation when I point out that the nazis were not the only criminals. You may not have noticed that I do this to fill in the gaps in what you say.

You are aware that millions died in Ukraine (and other countries) under the Soviets.

You are aware that the actions of the Soviets were largely carried out by Russians and their allies.

You pretend that anyone who mentions these facts is pro-nazi and anti-russian.

Hopefulgoat · 09/04/2014 16:49

the actions of the Soviets were largely carried out by Russians and their allies.

Converting history into Russo-phobia

PigletJohn · 09/04/2014 16:59

ODFD.

It is enlarging on your statement "I can't imagine how you could have a country in Europe where one part of the country worships Nazi collaborators and puts 4 neo Nazis in government, while the other part had their grand-grandfathers killed and grandmothers raped by those collaborators and don't want anything to do with that government." to remind you that there are some people who may not want their country to be dominated by Russia again.

Possibly you have never been in a country that has been invaded and occupied. It is quite common for people to feel antipathy towards the previous occupiers.

Hopefulgoat · 09/04/2014 17:25

Russian-speaking Ukrainians are not occupiers. Ukraine is their country and they should have all the same rights.

Maybe Ukrainians should have a process of national reconciliation, putting the controversy of Soviet times behind them. Ukrainians from all ethnic groups participated fully in the soviet regime and they should acknowledge that and move on.

They also need a 'denazification' to denounce that worshiping of Bandera and the Russo-phobia.

Having renounce Russo-phobia, I can't see how any one would deny part of Ukrainian citizens speaking their mother language because it is Russian.

PigletJohn · 09/04/2014 17:48

I haven't heard anyone describe Russian-speaking Ukrainians as occupiers. Have you?