Can we have a Ukraine/ Russia/ Crimea thread for dummies?

[chicaguapa]

In other words, could someone explain the situation in really simple terms please. I don't understand it but feel it's important and I should know what's going on.

And because DD(12) asked me this morning and I couldn't answer.

It's clear where the nutters are in the video and in

and, as you say, this video

and, as you say, this one

Ya, looks like they decided to copy maidan. Chaos.

not sure if I understand you point. Are you now saying that you approve of the maidan demonstrations? Or are you now saying that you disapprove of the pro-Russian gangs?

It's up to you whether you're interested or not. The fact remains, opinions of people in power in the US matter.

Back to the French Revolution and what a blessing it was - it ushered in a period of intense civil strife in France, followed by the emergence of Napoleon, who brought war to the furthest reaches of Europe. In all maybe 40 years of strife and war began with the storming of the Bastille. The net result for France was a political legacy of deep division between conservative and progressive forces, and a political culture where scrapping what went before and starting again was accepted as a reasonable way to deal with fault lines. The current incarnation of the French body politic is the fifth attempt at a republic. There is no incentive to solve stalemate or introduce necessary reforms or try to encourage a sense of what is the common good when at the back of everyone's mind is the possibility of starting all over from scratch and imposing the ideal of one particular group on everyone else.

And of course the post revolutionary strife is much in evidence in Ukraine right now, with the revolutionary spirit adding fuel to the various fires ablaze all over the country. Everything in Ukraine is now up for grabs. Hence the scenes in the parliament, the marching and triumphalism of the Right, and the gestures of the Russian minority. It is always better not to unleash that sort of energy into a vacuum. From a Machiavellian pov, if a revolution is going to be sponsored it is always wise to plan and carry it through all the way to the end, not leave it up to some mythical 'desire for democracy' to work its magic. The role of the US in opening the floodgates is similar to the role of Germany in allowing Lenin passage to the Finland Station in a closed and unmolested train in 1917.

Note once more the aggressive use of rhetorical questions, which is a typical male trolling tactic in forums where women predominate.

how frightfully sexist of you.

Typical aggressive response.

And again.

Maybe you think the irony of that is amusing. I hope you are having fun.

From The Telegraph www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10751858/Ukraine-MPs-fight-in-parliament.html --

A clip of fistfighting in parliament in Kiev. If you look closely you will see the distinctive figure of Miroshnichenko (in ponytail) throwing his weight around. At this point I probably do not have to remind anyone that he sits on the freedom of speech committee.

There is also a woman in a purple frock who sticks out like a sore thumb and clearly is not in her natural environment.

Sadly it seems it is not possible to hold or express an opinion even in Ukraine's parliament if it differs from the opinion of the Right. The response will be aggression, even from someone ostensibly concerned about freedom of speech.

OMG, the guy with the pony tail is the MP from the Right Sector in charge of the parlamentary commission for "Free speech", the same that was biting up the TV director two weeks ago. The woman acts like she is hitting people in the face for living.

Guardian gives an insight into what was said:

A brawl erupted in the Ukrainian parliament chamber after the country's communist leader accused nationalists of playing into the hands of Russia by adopting extreme tactics early in the Ukrainian crisis.

Symonenko stirred nationalist anger in parliament when, referring to the pro-Russian protesters who had seized buildings in eastern Ukraine, he suggested that nationalists had set a precedent earlier this year by seizing public buildings in protest at the rule of the ousted president, Viktor Yanukovych.

Now, he said, armed groups were attacking people who wanted to defend their rights by peaceful means. "You are today doing everything to intimidate people. You arrest people, start fighting people who have a different point of view," he said, before being pulled away from the rostrum by the Svoboda deputies.

He gets around, doesn't he?

Nail on the head by Symonenko, as it turned out.

The interim government is clearly applying double standards.

Maidan protesters stormed and occupied buildings, harassed officials, built barricades and burned tires. They organised 'self defense groups', mostly from Svoboda and Right Sector militias armed with bats and in balaclavas. They attacked and burned policemen with Molotov cocktails. This was labelled as peaceful protest and radicals were called heroes of the revolution.On the 21 February those heroes negotiated themselves amnesty for their violence.

Yesterday we learned from Newsnight that only 20% people in the East support the interim government. People in the East are Ukrainians and have the same rights as those in Maidan.

So when the most vocal and radical of them copy Maidan and do the same, they are labelled "terrorists" and promised to experience "the full power of the law". Those who started protests a few weeks ago are in detention without charge.

These double standards make it obvious that Maidan winners do not intend to treat the East equally. This is going to further alienate and radicalize voters in East. It will be difficult to see a unity candidate.

Poroshenko, the oligarch and the front runner for the presidential elections appeared on Maidan throughout the 3 months of protests and is believed to have financed it. So he will be tainted by all the mistakes of the interim government. The other presidential candidates like Timoshenko and those from Svoboda party are even more divisive.

The western nationalist elements will be very hard to contain thanks partly to their important contribution in the Maidan events, and because of the right wing tendency to favour grand public gestures and intimidation of opponents its physicality European governments, especially in Germany, will be spooked. The other factor that encourages the fight to the death mentality is the winner-takes-all culture in Ukrainian politics, which has not changed at all despite the alleged 'reform' platform of the Kiev government.

Thank gods the interim government has not, so far, chosen to get the special police to shoot dead dozens of unarmed demonstators, as happened before the previous, discredited, pro-Russian president fled the country.

AFAIK the maidan demonstrators did not break into an armoury and steal weapons, as has recently happened in the East. That would have given an excuse for a vicious firefight, which would have been very undesirable.

AFAIK the maidan demonstrators did not break into an armoury and steal weapons

"While protests continue on the streets of central Kiev, the cities in the west of Ukraine are slipping towards autonomy with new parallel governments and security forces that have openly admitted they have deserted to the side of protesters.

In Lviv, the heartland of Ukrainian nationalism, firearms have been stolen from local military bases and police are no longer to be seen on the streets."

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/21/ukraine-western-pro-european-cities-lviv

Well that's interesting. Just like the pro-Russian separists, you mean? So there is an equivalence in the actions of the extremists in both camps.

'So there is an equivalence in the actions of the extremists in both camps.'

One lot was neo-nazis and the Russians are ordinary people frightened of being ruled by neo-nazis and far-right MPs who have fistfights in parliament if someone disagrees with their point of view.

"the actions" I said.

There may be more talk of double standards.

The hypocrisy in this whole thing is laughable.

If it was good enough for the neo-nazis to topple an elected President, elected by all of Ukraine, then presumably the pro-Russians believe they have the right to not recognise the appointees who have been selected by those who carried out the coup.

The difference is that the pro-Russians only want a referendum for rule of their region, not for rule of Lviv, Galicia, Kiev and all regions of the country where Svoboda, for example, have support.

The sooner the all-Ukraine elections are held, the better. 25th May, I believe.

There will be a problem that after the elections it will be more difficult for people to say the new government is not legitimate.

I see the EU has insisted on reforms as a condition of aid, so maybe corruption will be less than usual.

Yes elections are necessary, but can they be fair in such an intinidatory atmosphere were Svoboda MPs have fistfights because they disagree with a communist MP?

Is anyone from Yanukovych's party standing for President or is it just the coup parties standing? How can the people of the South and East see these parties as representing their interests?

What happens if someone stands and prefers the Russian deal of $15 billion and cheap gas etc rather than the IMF deal that Yats, the former banker, wants? Will Svoboda and Right Sector start all over again and will our media all come back and start reporting on another peaceful protest?

It is hard to see how suvh one sided winner takes it all policy of and rethoric of the current government would motivate East Ukrainians to vote for any of the candidates who supported this interim government. That means that the West and the East will vote for different candidates and the instability and divisions might continue.

What country do you live in, goat? Do you get to vote in several regional presidents at the same time, or just one for the whole country? I'm trying to visualise how it might work.