Russia has invaded Ukraine

[ohmymimi]

Not a shot fired. Putin outwits the West and who/what will stop him getting his way?

Are there Russian troops all over Ukraine?

Is Crimea a semi autonomous district?

Since Texas was once part of Mexico that was invaded and occupied by the US of A, I would probably think turn around is fair play. (I would also be very surprised if English is the majority language of Texas in 50 years time but that is another story.)

Crimea has been been part of Ukraine only since 1954.

Crimea was given to Ukraine by Khruschev (a Ukrainian) in 1954 to show his colleagues in the Politburo that he could, and to smoke out potential opposition to him for other fish he intended to fry. Crimea was also pretty much an economic disaster zone after WW2 and the deportation of the Tatars. His idea may also have been to shift the cost of redeveloping Crimea to Ukraine. It was also a sop to Ukraine, to remind separatist factions that he was Ukrainian, powerful, and generous.

claig, yes Donetsk is about 90% russian-speaking and also part of that number are russian nationals, but no idea how much exactly.
There aer more Ukrainians in Crimea, and also Tartars - did you just see a vey good inteview on Channel4 from an 80yrs old Tartar woman who described how Stalin shipped them like animals to Uzbek republic (she was a 10yr old) and people died in these trains just to be thrown out and left like that during the train stops? Now she hears russian helkicopters go past her house, Yes, I know and she know that they won't shipped anywhere now, but already there's been crosses marked on tartar houses by russian nationalist thugs, same as used during stalin's times of opression.
As for Donetsk - they did say on the news (and that's what Id say too) that not everyome in Donetsk wants to actually become russia regardless of russian being their first language. It's mainly a divide between young and old, but it's more complicated than Crimea because the heavy industries of Donetsk work for trade with russia and all the spec there is old Soviet/russian, not euro spec/technology. That's the main concern, that if russia chooses so, all these will be closed. NOt that russia isn't interested to keep them open, but they warn about closures. People are scared to lose jobs. Of course Russia could conmtinue trade with Ukraine at least for a while, before it gets Euro investment, but they may want to damagethe trade for political reasons and to show their power. Not very reasonable! All this should be TALKED about and discussed.

Angela Merkel now also joined the rest and said that the Crimean ref is illegal - good! Putin said he MIGHT now talk to the Ukrainians. They have to recognise the govt - everyone else does and nothing can bedone until May elections in Ukraine to change this status, it's therefore called 'temporary'.
Ha, what about bolshevik October revolution of 1917 - an armed coup of gigantic proportion compared to Ukraine, the new state was established that way and ercognised by all. The armed coup wouldn't have happened if the pres elections were brought forward to March, and Russia of course was dictating to Yanoukovich to prolong the agony, he never has done his own decisions. Well, apart fron thankfully, not to order police to shoot the protesters (I don't mean the right wingers but the majority who were all mixed up) for which Putin is angry with him (from what he said on his press-conf), he said he told him to involve police heavily, whereas Y just let them go completely, Putin furious , but it just shows he feels it's absolutely normal to control Pres iof Ukraine - that was the system.

Clashes in Crimea niw between russians and ukrainians - I think they need to officially talk urgently, all very dangerous.

Yes, Khruschev signed Crimea to Ukraine, but never did he or anyone planned the demise of the USSR. It was divisions within one country. In 1992 when Ukraine separated Russia quite happily left Crimea there (though there were some disputes) because they were sure at that stage that Ukrainian govt is under control, and will remain so for a logn time. I'm sure there were some paymetns to each other involved so it was convenient.
Rusians were not opressed while being in Ukraine, the only thing happened in 2005 (or roughly then) when I think they had to study Ukrainian at schools like the rest of Ukraine (as well as russia) and the language of documents had to be Ukr. But no one made them speak Ukrainian in daily life, and there was no violence needless to say. They did consider themselves russians but co-existed well. As I say, new Ukr govt has to give them strong guarantees and leave it as autonomous republic, but hurrying the ref-m before they can hear what's being offered is wrong! And many young russian speakers are leaning towards europe anyway.

Yes, it is very worrying for Tatars or Ukrainians or Russians in non-majority areas.

Without the politicians and extreme nationalists steering trouble, people in Ukraine seem to get along quite well, judging by TV reports.

Could anyone explain why those Ukrainian soldiers that marched with the flag live on Ukrainian TV had a red flag? They marched, asked the Russians to do their jobs, played football and went home. They do appear to get along...

Without the politicians and extreme nationalists steering trouble,

and, of course, without one country invading and occupying another

people in Ukraine seem to get along quite well

a military invasion is never the best way to win friends.

Piglet, your shouting slogans at me is just illustrating my point.

good god woman, are you trying to say that

a military invasion is never the best way to win friends

is not true?

Or are you trying to say that a military invasion and occupation has not occurred?

Out with it. What are you trying to claim?

Piglet, what does god and woman has to do with anything? Are you in Ukraine? Is that how they talk to women over there?

I just asked the question why those soldiers that marched live on TV had a red flag? I didn't expect to see so many reg flags. I was just curious whether anyone with a knowledge of the culture could explain why those soldiers had one...

sorry, I became overly irritated by your refusal to face up to the fact that Russia has invaded and occupied its neighbour, as well as your insulting accusations that I am motivated by ethnic hatred and am a nazi apologist.

Are you in the Kremlin? Is that how people evade discussion over there?

just to check, is there anyone else on here who does not accept that Russia has invaded and occupied its neighbour?

Is there anyone who thinks that an invasion is a good way to maintain friendly relations between countries?

Piglet, let's get one thing straight. I am not 'Russia', I am not 'Putin', I am absolutely not able to speak or answer on behalf of those things. I didn't invade anything.

If it helps you, I can see that Russia has annexed Crimea. It is not how things should be done in Europe.

It seems to me that Crimea was under Russian occupation for more than 200 years. It was never under Ukrainian control with up to 25000 Russian troops stationed there and a population with the Russian ethnic majority with personal of family ties to the Russian fleet. All previous Ukrainian governments must have been acutely aware of this. Somebody forgot to tell this to this current lot.

I can also see that par of Ukrainians are very upset by this and another part are quite relieved by this.

Some Ukrainians are marching with torches and swastikas on their sleeves and venerating Nazi collaborators.
Another part are agitating red flags.

Looking from where I am, it does seem to me that the country needs to build an internal peace and consensus before dragging those divisions inside the EU..

has anyone said that you are Russia or Putin? Please do show me where.

I see you cannot bring yourself to use the words "invaded" and "occupied"

Would you agree that a military invasion is never the best way to win friends?

I agree that military invasion is never the best way to win friends.

I don't remember seeing a column of Libyan or Iraqi soldiers marching up to the Americans with the American flag. I may have missed that. I don't watch that much TV.

That's why I was asking to explain what was happening there with the Ukrainian soldiers playing football under the red flag next to the Russians.

(The reason to ship the Tatars and other Muslims obv there was no reason to treat people like animals away from their homelands was the way the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was hobnobbing with Hitler, and giving his blessing to the recruitment of the Muslim SS Handschar Division in the Nazi-occupied Balkans confirmed the danger Muslims posed during WW2. Also, Turkey's history of alliance with Germany in WW1 and neutrality in WW2 made the USSR suspicious of a transnational Muslim propensity to support Germany. For the benefit of PigletJohn, who seems to have forgotten, the USSR was at the time of the major deportations engaged in a war of annihilation inflicted upon it by the Third Reich.)

PigletJohn,
I do not think military occupation is the best way to win friends.
I do not think Russia particularly cares about winning friends.
Russia wants Crimea.
I do not know why you think Russia wants to win friends or why you think Russia would go this way about it.
Russia has the outlook that nobody wants to be friends anyway. This is probably well justified.

Beagles, I do not think you understand how long it will take for the industries of the Donbass to be wound up under new western management, or how many people are going to lose their jobs before 2014 is out. This will not be because Russia waved a magic wand. This will happen because the west wants to make a profit out of Ukraine for the western shareholders of the western companies and conglomerates that will move in.

I do not know how you can use the failure of the Ukrainian president to do what he was told by Putin (allegedly) to illustrate how Putin ran Ukraine. It seems to me the failure of Yanukovich to kow tow shows the exact opposite. I do not know why you are so happy to see the west muscle in or why you are so enthusiastic about future prospects for Ukraine. In the short term Ukraine faces enormous social and cultural upheaval along with dire poverty for millions. In the long term it faces debt bondage, plus poverty and emigration.

And Russia was never happy to see Crimea stay with Ukraine, even way back in 1992.

Please explain what possible reason you can have for alleging that I have forgotten that the erstwhile allies, Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russian dominated Soviet Union, later became enemies.

It seems to me you prefer not to dwell on events of 70 years ago, which is understandable given that it is now 2014 and the world has clearly moved on. But nobody in their right mind would consider the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact aka the Soviet Non Aggression Pact (German sense of humour) as anything but a sly move on Hitler's part that was undertaken with tongue firmly in cheek and plans for invasion of the USSR already being made. And if not already in the offing, plans were started while the ink was drying.

Have you ever read 'Mein Kampf'?

And your reason for alleging that I have forgotten, is what?

Just been watching mclaughlin.com shows on the internet. Unfortunately, we don't get it on our TV anymore. But it is still going, even though they are all getting older now. On the last show, when they sum up with predictions, Mclaughlin says that the Ukraine crisis is the end of the utopian globalist New World Order, that globalism is out and nationalism is back in and we are back to the era of nation states vying for power. Pat Buchanan agreed with him.

This is a disaster for the socialists, the progressives, the globalists and the plutocrats. I predict this is the end of the green gravy train, the global warming gang and the climate change cowboys.

Pat Buchanan thinks that Putin has lost because he has lost Ukraine but gained Crimea, and he basically had Crimea before it all started.

Putin will probably now expose the global warming hoax, now that he has got nothing to lose and has been excluded from the club.

It struck me that since you didn't post military casualties upthread and had plucked other casualty numbers from thin air, you have not much interest in the facts of WW2.

I think some Russian politician once joked from some godforsaken spot in the very frozen north that he personally looked forward to global warming. Or maybe it wasn't a joke and they sincerely hope global warming will give Russia more land suitable for agriculture. The question of global warming offers Russia scope for obstructionism. Combating global warming is a pet project of the Obama administration and it is the subject of international debate, which Russia can now use (along with other international forums on different issues) to stymie the American agenda. Russia does not care abut global warming per se but instead looks to find the angle where Russia can profit.

I do not think this is the end of globalism. The east-west tension that has come to the boil has always been there ever since Russia did not roll over and die after the fall of the USSR; while the US has focused on grandstanding to an audience used to seeing the Evil Empire as the bad guy, China has risen to the status of perhaps the only real superpower, and now owns 8% of US debt, third behind the Social Security Trust Fund and the Federal Reserve. The amount China holds is $1.2 trillion. Foolishly in the case of Ukraine, the Obama administration rushed in where angels (or at least sensible parties) fear to tread. The resilience of globalism can be seen in the none-too-hawkish attitude of the EU and the fact that China holds so much US public debt illustrates the interconnectedness of economies.

Nationalism has always been right under the surface both in the US and in Russia. It flares up occasionally. Again, financial and business links have had the effect of bolstering the plutocracy (such as it is) which in turn keeps all but those nationalists who are least invested in the system in line (nationalists such as the European right).

Mathanxiety -- If you insist on mixing up the Soviet Union and post Soviet Russia, at least acknowledge that the USSR/Russia shares both the values and the interests of other major powers, and that nobody can lay claim to a history free of genocide or injustice or running roughshod over principles they claim to espouse.

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Abra1d Sun 09-Mar-14 08:20:32

You think that Stalin's actions are just really not so different from other leaders'? Seriously? His deliberately imposed famine in the Ukraine alone killed up to 7 million. As Pigletjohn says, he actually killed more people than Hitler. These are not war casualties. They are people shot, starved, worked to death, etc.

Abra1d -- American history features (in no particular order):
Enslavement of Africans and subsequent legalised discrimination of the slaves' descendants, including peonage in the American South in the early 20th century up to the outbreak of WW2, with many worked to death, bought, sold, raped, flogged, kept illiterate, deprived of legal rights, deprived of civil rights...
Deliberate policy of starvation of the Plains Indians by killing of the buffalo herds, deliberate death marches of native peoples into the west under horrible conditions,
Wholesale relocation of Japanese American population and theft of their property and homes during WW2,
Deliberate use of a WMD against a civilian population in Hiroshima and Nagasaki,
Use of research done on prisoners by Japanese doctors in WW2 in the US biological weapons development programme and protection from prosecution of those responsible for the Japanese programme,
Policy of forced sterilisation of people deemed unfit to reproduce,
Medical experimentation on people without their permission or knowledge, or against their will (the poor, black people, women, people with mental illness, orphans and prisoners for the most part, but also subjects in places like Guatemala); this went on until the 1970s.

If all you and PigletJohn care about is total numbers killed or made to suffer then perhaps the USSR takes the honours.
However, it is not all about numbers. It is about values and hypocrisy.

Iirc, some Nazi doctors on trial in Nuremberg cited prewar unethical US research as part of their defence.