Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
News

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

Child taken from womb? Truth into darkness....

999 replies

LakeDistrictBabe · 13/12/2013 20:20

Ok, the old thread is nearly full. If you read the other three, I don't need to re-write everything again ;)

But you know I am referring to the case involving an Italian mother and the British social services.
Opinions welcome.

OP posts:
johnhemming · 14/12/2013 14:31

DrankSangriaInThePark> There is no apostrophe in plurals John.

I apologise for mistyping the apostrophe. However, the rest of what I have typed is accurate.

Spero>
In her email to the bar council of 9th August 2012 said (inter alia)
My suggestions to resolve the complaint.

...

Further I am happy to undertake not to initiate any further exchanges with Mr Hemming on any public electronic communications network.

Juliet123456 · 14/12/2013 15:35

I am very disappointed with all four threads that they ended up being so personal (and pointlessly so) when everyone on this debate wants improvements to the system and fewer chances of miscarriages of justice.

Original poster
LakeDistrictBabe · 14/12/2013 15:38

@johnhemming

"not to initiate" means "not to start". Am I being ignorant of the English language here?
Because as far as I know I started the thread and you are not in the title, nor I mentioned you in my first post at all.

So why are you attacking Spero with nonsense? Does that mean that you ban people from replying to your posts because they don't agree with what you say?

OP posts:
Original poster
LakeDistrictBabe · 14/12/2013 15:40

@Juliet if you are disappointed, I dare to say that nobody is pointing a gun at you forcing you to post. You can have a cup of tea, relax on your sofa and stop posting if you don't like the thread. Nobody forces you to be here and to like what is posted.

OP posts:
CarpeVinum · 14/12/2013 16:05

John, something has turned up, not the extract you posted itself, but the case where I believe the text may have been "extracted" from.

Was it case of the mother in question when she was heard at the Tribunal of Rome, late spetember ?

There is an Italian article referencing the mother by name in conjunction with the case (+ case number) and stating the court archived the case.

Don't worry if you don't know or don't have time to find out, I'll phone them Monday morning to check. If the motivazione has been released to the public any member of the public has the right of acess to a full copy of the final version released to the public, so I can do the scut work myself

johnhemming · 14/12/2013 18:17

The case was decided on 20th September by a divisional court of four in the minors court of Rome presided over by Angela Rivellese. The reference is I think 1026 of 2013 VG

I do have the full 17 page italian judgment as a scan, but I am not going to just post this somewhere. I am still trying to get a full translation as there are BIIR elements that I have not got translated that might be important on the nub of the jurisdictional issue. I do understand some italian, but am not going to trust my own translation for legal documents.

CarpeVinum · 14/12/2013 18:34

Same case number as the one I found.

Good, thanks, that means I am not going to spend an hour in voicemail hell on Monday for nothing.

Ta mucho!

johnhemming · 14/12/2013 18:48

What I find interesting about the Italian judgment in comparison to the many hundreds of English judgments I have read is how it prioritises the family and values relationships such as sibling relationships and grandparents.

MadameDefarge · 14/12/2013 19:30

I think one would also need to read hundreds of Italian court transcripts to get a proper feel of the process there.

Not just one.

Original poster
LakeDistrictBabe · 14/12/2013 19:35

@johnhemming

So you cherish all the stupid bureaucracy surrounding all the poor Italian families enslaved by the Roman Catholic church system?
Congrats!!!

Therefore, you're also spitting into the eyes of all Italian women (which I'm one!) who fought for years to fight:

  • prejudice
  • unpunished abuse, violence and rape
  • idiotic bureaucracy trapping women in endless life loops

Might I advise you to move to Italy before opening your mouth? Italian expats here in UK would be very grateful to see you there and let some other Italian families come to UK, where they do enjoy FREEDOM from a system full of useless bureaucracy that traps families in hell

^P.S: I warn you, Catholics wouldn't like your lifestyle much. They really don't like men who are married and openly visiting a mistress*

OP posts:
MadameDefarge · 14/12/2013 19:39

Yes. Catholics do rather take a stern view on the breaking of the marriage vows, adultery, fornication and children born out of wedlock. And Italian Catholics in particular.

Don't let the antics of Berlasconi fool you into thinking otherwise.

The mores of a corrupt elite do not filter down to the majority of society.

johnhemming · 14/12/2013 19:50

So you are arguing that someone has to be a Roman Catholic to value grandparents and siblings. I am not a Roman Catholic and I disagree.

CarpeVinum · 14/12/2013 19:59

My husband's experience of working in a children's institute here in Italy pretty much demonstrates the less "fluffy" aspects of a "one size fits all" priority of making parental rights/family connections enshrined in law.

It was exceedingly painful for him to see the effects of children living in limbo for years in an institute, so he could ferry them for their mandated vists to see family. Who were sometimes there, sometimes sober and sometimes not keeping company that most would not consider suitable when a kid was in the home.

I apprecate you applaud the Italian way. DH having been at the sharper end of it is less convinced.

Might I advise you to move to Italy before opening your mouth? Italian expats here in UK would be very grateful to see you

Err... some of the British expats in Italy are less keen on that idea.

Original poster
LakeDistrictBabe · 14/12/2013 20:03

@johnhemming

Reread what you wrote:

"What I find interesting about the Italian judgment in comparison to the many hundreds of English judgments I have read is how it prioritises the family and values relationships such as sibling relationships and grandparents."

You were speaking about Italians, not Roman Catholics all over the world. Rome has the Vatican State at its centre and it dictates Italian politics too.
You won't see any gay marriage or any kind of civil relationship approved. Even to adopt you need to have been married for more than three years. Singles and gay couples can't adopt. They are also trying to make abortion illegal. It took decades to the Parliament to approve a law against the 'femminicidio', the homicide against women.

Are you so naive for real or just misinformed about the state of Italy? Family in Italy, in many cases, is a fake facade due to religion and prejudice.
If you think otherwise, you're highly MISTAKEN.

OP posts:
Original poster
LakeDistrictBabe · 14/12/2013 20:04

@Carpe
Err... some of the British expats in Italy are less keen on that idea.

I guess so Grin

OP posts:
CarpeVinum · 14/12/2013 20:07

Roman Catholism is relevant to the system of law as it is in Italy. You cannot get a fag paper between the cultural echos still very present in the now and the long history of religious influence brought to bear. The law reflects the culture and the culture (and thus the law) reflects the relgion.

Trying to seperate the long history of religious influence from any aspect of Italian priorities is like trying to untangle a plate of overcooked spagetti that somebody left to congeal overnight.

johnhemming · 14/12/2013 20:57

I am comparing this particular judgment to those in England which prioritise government objectives beyond those of the children.

nennypops · 14/12/2013 21:06

That is a pointless exercise unless you compare a range of Italian judgments against English judgements. We would also need to know a lot more about child abuse and neglect statistics in Italy.

CarpeVinum · 14/12/2013 21:13

Well I think that is a question of interprtation and dare I say it, personal bias.

Any reading and comparision making is going to be coloured by the bias of the reader. Mine, Joe Blog's ..... yours.

By and large yours comes accross as one of the more "tightly glued in place" cases personal bais I have come accross (And I spend huge chuncks of my life talking and listening to people with an express intent to stimulate them to speak their mind, so I have been exposed to a veriftable flottila of fixed personal biases over the last couple of decades)

So forgive me if I don't keel over in shock if you see in the document precisely that which you feels bolsters your postion.

johnhemming · 14/12/2013 21:15

We would also need to know a lot more about child abuse and neglect
statistics in Italy.

That's true. Comparative statistics would help and are difficult to come by. I did get the Council of Europe to start an inquiry on this, but I lost my influence on the process because the rapporteur lost his seat in 2010. I had a plan of getting solid comparative statistics.

Hence we can only follow trends in the UK. Those don't have some of the key pieces of information, however.

CarpeVinum · 14/12/2013 21:16

sorry, that last post of mine was to John btw, if not obvious.

johnhemming · 14/12/2013 21:31

As a general point I assume if someone is being rude they are being rude to me.

johnhemming · 14/12/2013 21:32

I mean in these three threads.

CarpeVinum · 14/12/2013 21:32

I can see how that might happen.

CarpeVinum · 14/12/2013 21:33

Crap, quote fail again, going for a personal record tonight.

As a general point I assume if someone is being rude they are being rude to me.

I can see how that might happen.

Swipe left for the next trending thread