Italian adoption case III

[Juliet123456]

The last thread says all I need to know about those in the system. It also the most legally dangerous thread I have ever seen on mumsnet. I hope someone has been through the posts for libel risk. It also entirely one sided and biased and makes me laugh.

The defensiveness of those involved in this area will hopefully disappear once we have the openness that JH and indeed many others are seeking and obtaining as the judges increasingly accept that it helps everyone to understand what are very difficult decisions - parents, children and lawyers and social workers and expert witnesses in this field.

It will continue to be important always to get to the facts and where possible publish the facts. I continue to believe that almost any of us could have our children removed if the state set its mind to that. If publishing more decisions and giving rights to parents and those involved and the children to write what they like on twitter, facebook and the like and to let parents and children even when separated communicate and talk about any issues they choose will help then let us hope the law continues down that course.

wetaugust I think after three threads on a complex issue people are letting of steam a little bit. To be fair, such allegations couldn't be made if all of the contributors were posting coherently.

I didn't know that it was 2 hospital managers that escorted her back to Italy according to the Booker article.

She would not have known she was about to undergo a CS unless someone was in contempt of the court order that determined she should not be forewarned - so nothing new there then.

wetaugust - just re reading and one phrase of yours stuck me.

You think by constantly referring to him it makes us sound as though we 'value his opinion'?

I am surprised that you can think this. I don't value his opinion. I think I have made that clear.

The sad thing is that some people do, by virtue of his position. They think that because he is an MP he must have some responsibility and integrity. They think he would not tell deliberate lies.

Accompanying my complaint letter in 2012 was a message from a user of this forum. she had sought advice from JH. He advised her not to co-operate with the social workers. She lost her baby to adoption. She wished she had never met him. She trusted him because he was an MP.

Also look at the 2011 thread referred to quite a few things and look at Trippy's story. Many of her posts she asked to be removed but you will be able to piece together some of her story. She sought advice from JH and it was the same sad story. As Maryz said, he was rude and dismissive to her.

This is why I will 'keep on' at him whenever he pops up on these threads. This forum is visited by very many people and some of them will be facing care proceedings and/or know others who are. You yourself have quite rightly pointed out how poor the reputation of child protection social workers is in the wider community.

I am afraid I cannot simply sit back and 'ignore' him when I know as a FACT that he has damaged and hurt vulnerable women and will go on to hurt many more if he is not stopped.

I am not stupid enough to think that anything I can do or say will stop him but if just one person is reading tonight can see him for what he is, I will consider it worth it.

Well said Spero.

I remember that thread of Trippy's.

I do apologise, sincerely, for sinking to certain levels. Sorry.

wet august - where did I accuse you of saying I was baying and hysterical in court???

I simply wondered whether you would still think it worth coming to court with me when you have clearly lumped me in with people you have condemend as 'baying' and 'hysterical'.

Complaining of personal attacks, whilst dishing out your own is not something that surprises me on this forum, but it does disappoint me in our particular case as I could see the force of your previous posts and you did not need to resort to personal insults to make your case.

There's coherently and there's civally.

Just because you don't consider you're getting a coherent response from JH there is no need to resort to name calling. Last night was absolutelky dreadful with people calling people who were not party to this thread 'cunts'.

You claim to want to publicise that the views of JH et al are wrong but many people are going to disregard your views if you start calling people cunts and other abusive terms. And please don't take 'you' to mean 'you' personally.

I have never known a thread on Mumsnet before where people are so intent on 'playing the man and not the ball'.

Unless some other spiteful remarks have been directed at me while I;ve been writing this, I shall suspend my interest and prime my skirting board.

Is the article in L'Reppublica written by the same Fabio Tonacci who wrote La Mangiatoia by any chance ?

I called Ian Josephs a cunt.

Because he is.

Have you bothered to read anything that he writes?

Oh fgs Spero.

It's impossible to discuss with people who are so intent on twisting what's said.

Good luck with the JH witch hunt.

just remember that every time you post his name on here you create a searchable record on the internet so even more people can hear his views - views you profess to dislike so vehemently.

I'm beginning to wonder if you aren't actually part of his fan club.

I'd still oike to come to court with you - please feel free to PM me with date, place and time if you can gain the agreement of all parties.

I am also curious as to why people think there are huge amounts of social workers on this thread. I think the only one is Nana.

Most contributors appear to be Italian or adoptive mothers.

I am so sorry Holey that you think that way. I hope you can get respite and support in some way, even if you won't go via social services.

That really is very unprofessional Spero.

Holey They just can't see it, can they?

Holey... which social worker on here has made you think you need to avoid social workers.

Which poster and what have the said that you feel questions their ability to be a social worker?

Happy to accept your point if you can back it up.

I am not twisting anything. I am sorry you feel that way.

I am simply repeating JH's words to him and asking him if that is what he still thinks. He appears to be unable to answer those questions. He really seems not to know what he does think.

If people can search for these threads, then I say 'good'. the more the spotlight is shone on him, the less risk he can continue to hurt people.

I am in court usually 4 days every week, mainly in Bristol but in other courts around the South West region, including Plymouth, Portsmouth, Swindon and Bath, occasionally London. The easiest thing is if you let me know when you would be free and I can tell you what I have in my diary. But I would not be able to confirm the other parties would agree to your attendance until the day itself so you might have to prepare for not being allowed in.

I hope you won't chalk this up to the 'secrecy' of the family courts but more the perfectly understandable wish that some people have not to let the distressing details of their family crisis open for public consumption.

Ignore them Holey. Then you can sit back and watch them whip themselves into a self-congratulatory fury of abuse, as it did last night, when they've pissed off anyone else else who wanted to discuss the issue.

I am a professional. I am also a human being and a mother.

I post here as a human being and a mother. My professional role enables me to offer information and advice but I don't post here as a barrister.

And I still think Ian Josephs is a cunt.

wet august - my offer of course remains open to you and anyone else who wants to learn more, but it seems clear from the tone of your recent posts that you have nothing but contempt for me and what I am trying to do so I will not anticipate any messages from you.

No, I quite understand why the consent of all the parties is needed. i would expect no less.

I am max'ed out until after Christmas with home improvements (making workmen cups of tea), form-filling for DS and hospital appointments, but will contact you in the new year if that's OK. Bath/Bristol would be my preference.

I will look forward to hearing from you.

Aw Spero - that's not fair. I have not expressed contempt for you at all - show me where I express contempt.

I expect people to act reasonably and so should you, whether or not you have your legal hat on at the time, and some of the abuse that is being posted on here is not reasonable.

We will have to agree to disagree on what abuse is 'reasonable'.

A man who advocates not protecting children from sexual abuse is a cunt. That is abusive certainly but I consider it entirely reasonable.

I am surprised that you can read what IJ says, note that JH will not disassociate himself from it and just shrug your shoulders and move on.

I wonder why people object so much to attempts to pin JH down into one or two facts to prove what he is saying? Don't you want our elected representatives to be accountable? Don't you think someone raising the issues he does should be required to provide at least some evidence to support what he claims? And when he allows himself to be closely associated with someone who proclaims the views freely on display on Ian Josephs' website, don't you think it appropriate to ask him to say whether he agrees?

And does it really not bother you at all that he is so unbelievably slippery and evasive? Apart from anything else, he receives rather a lot of money out of your taxes.

JH: I believe I should be accountable for what I do and say, but I cannot be accountable for what someone else does or says.

Right, so what you do and say is to associate yourself closely with Ian Josephs. Do you agree with the views he states on his website which are quoted by Maryz on the first page of this thread?

It is a mystery to me why anyone could possibly object to anyone wanting JH to be clear about his association with the likes of Josephs.

The reason we have to keep going on and on and on has been so horribly clearly demonstrated tonight - he is evasive to the nth degree, whilst at the same time boasting about his accountability.

This thread has made very uncomfortable reading for me because I now have very serious doubts about his competence in general, certainly his competence to be a serving Member of Parliament.