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Italian adoption case III

999 replies

Juliet123456 · 07/12/2013 09:29

The last thread says all I need to know about those in the system. It also the most legally dangerous thread I have ever seen on mumsnet. I hope someone has been through the posts for libel risk. It also entirely one sided and biased and makes me laugh.

The defensiveness of those involved in this area will hopefully disappear once we have the openness that JH and indeed many others are seeking and obtaining as the judges increasingly accept that it helps everyone to understand what are very difficult decisions - parents, children and lawyers and social workers and expert witnesses in this field.

It will continue to be important always to get to the facts and where possible publish the facts. I continue to believe that almost any of us could have our children removed if the state set its mind to that. If publishing more decisions and giving rights to parents and those involved and the children to write what they like on twitter, facebook and the like and to let parents and children even when separated communicate and talk about any issues they choose will help then let us hope the law continues down that course.

OP posts:
johnhemming · 07/12/2013 20:15

nennypops said: JH at 19.23 you purported to answer my question (which you said was a good one) in which I asked what precisely was your evidence for the proposition in question. However, not one part of your answer gives that evidence. As it's such a good question, do you think you could do so now?

I think nennypops meant 19.20.23

My answer is quite clear. The objective is to increase adoptions from care. Hence taking more babies is a valid mechanism if that increases the numbers of adoptions. It is clear that adoptions of children at younger ages are subject to fewer disruptions. Hence if the objective is increasing adoption numbers rather than protection children from child abuse then best to get the babies.

Maryz · 07/12/2013 20:20

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Maryz · 07/12/2013 20:23

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wetaugust · 07/12/2013 20:25

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Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Maryz · 07/12/2013 20:28

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NanaNina · 07/12/2013 20:28

I think we have finally got JH on the defensive, even a touch "rattled" maybe. It's an unusual occurrence in my experience. Could be that he has no allies on the thread. Claig has fortunately been influenced by Martin Narey's claims that children are left too long with unsafe parents, rather than being removed and given the opportunity of a permanent and stable home afforded by adoption. Hence the coalition's "push" on adoption targets for those children in the care system awaiting permanent homes NOT JH - repeat NOT - targets for snatching babies for adoption.

Your post on 19.20 JH is as usual complete and utter nonsense. "Whereas in the past children would have been returned to their parents they are now adopted." Nonsense! The LA Children's Services have always had a duty to work with the parents in order to return the child/ren to their care so long as it was considered to be in their best interests - if this was NOT the case, then the LA have a duty to find permanent homes for these children. Firstly they have a duty to see if anyone in the extended family was suitable to offer a home to the child/ren. If this was NOT the case, then dependent upon their age and circumstances a permanent foster home or adoptive home would be sought.

You state "to take a child into care only needs reasonable grounds no evidence" that gets an ICO Nonsense! I realise you have not been involved in actually being in court in care proceedings, except on a rare occasion when you have acted as a McKenzie friend and some good you did as you were severely criticised by the High Court Judge. Conversely I have been involved (over a career spanning 30 years) in probably hundreds of care proceedings. The grounds for requesting a court for permission to remove a child are that the children is being significantly harmed or is likely to suffer significant harm (yes I know that last one causes you a great deal of anguish as you fail to understand what it really means)

Had you been involved in the 5 days or so set aside for final hearings you would know that every professional (who are not incidentally in the pay of the LA, and who certainly not don't fall in line with the social worker's view) has to evidence everything that is contained in their reports. Legal representatives for the parents cross-examine in a robust fashion (and I have no problem with this) and it is not unusual for this cross-examination to take 3/4 hours or more if necessary. Then the Judge makes the final decision (oh sorry I forgot he is in on the conspiracy as well isn't he)

Your para beginning "It is not unreasonable to allow state action on an interim basis.........." is such gobbled gook nonsense I am not going to attempt to decipher what on earth you mean.

WHY am I doing all this.............WHY don't I learn from the past.

You claim that your views on the horrendous Ian Jacobs is nothing to do with this thread, so you don't have to answer (you don't need to because Spero has provided evidence of your association with this reprehensible man) and yet you then keep repeating what Lisa Longstaff of WAR states - what has that to do with this thread.

WHY are you asking us to believe (even comment) on the opinion of one person about whom we have absolutely no knowledge as to her ability to comment in a fair and rational manner, or whether in fact she is similar to you and holds a deep mistrust of social services, and hence her comments (like yours) aren't worthy of our consideration.

And your association with Ian Jacobs and his views are nothing short of disgusting. We don't need you to answer - you already have. If Nick Clegg is happy for you to associate yourself with those views and remain as an MP then he is as big a coward as you.

Maryz · 07/12/2013 20:31

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johnhemming · 07/12/2013 20:34

I posted a well argued post about the problems with S38 of the children's act and I get the continuation of an inane rant from the assorted Family Lawyers and Social Workers.

It remains that the WAR comments are important. The person you are referring to is not called Ian Jacobs. I could ask him (Ian Josephs) along to comment.

The one person I won't ask to comment is Alessandra because the family lawyers and social workers who post here are so awful. Not all family lawyers and social workers are that dreadful, but on this thread they are.

DrankSangriaInThePark · 07/12/2013 20:37

I agree. I think he is digging his own hole right now. He's even lost the ability to use his own language coherently.

Carpe- I have been doing a running translation for (also Italian) dp since last Sunday. It's rather embarrassing really, as I have, for the past 19 years, been singing the praises of UK politicians as a corpora and now he keeps saying to me "and this is an elected politician is it?

Maryz · 07/12/2013 20:38

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wetaugust · 07/12/2013 20:40

Maryz - I would never have heard of IJ until people started posting about him on here. Likewise the solicitor Flemming.

By contiunally harranging the man you make it seem as though you value hgis opinion, as though it counts for somthing. If I don't like something I dismiss it and don't keep returning to be all horrified all over again.

I don't care who JH 'endorses' because I actually make up my own mind about things , based, as I said upthreiad, on my own personal experiences and how much credulity I am inclined to give things. For instance, when the news of the London 'slaves' broke I posted to state I very much doubted that it was 'slavery', certainly not as I knew it. And that view appears to be one that's pretty much widespread now.

Keeping on at JH is not going to persuade people to your POV.

I'd like to know why the Health Trust did not apply to the Courts earlier. They should have been thinking about the eventual birth from the time she was sectioned. Why the lateness in applying? Saying that they were holding off to see whether she improved doesn't wash with me. They had her in the hospital for weeks and still they had a rushed application to the Court where people seemed, according to the transcript, yo be ill-prepared to the extent that they were guessing which LA was involved.

Doesn't inspire confidence.

DrankSangriaInThePark · 07/12/2013 20:45

"Keeping on at JH" or, as is actually the truth, "pointing out that most of what JH says is rubbish" has actually convinced a fair few people on this thread. Three threads ago, the majority of posts were shock! horror! believing every word of the utter fantasy tale being spouted by the British media.

Now there seem to be about 3 people believing the original story. One of whom appears to have become a dribbling fool over the past 4 pages. It's a shame he can't go back and insert some grammar and punctuation into his posts this evening, that would make him look slightly less unhinged, but hey ho, that's MN for you. Smile

wetaugust · 07/12/2013 20:49

I don't think anyone on here believes the original story as it was originally told.

I don't think this thread has convinced people otherwise. It was the released court transcripts that exposed the truth.

All you're doing with this is ensuring that all the people whose views you dislike i.e. JH, CB, IJ get even more publicity.

It really is starting to alienate people.

johnhemming · 07/12/2013 20:52

www.repubblica.it/esteri/2013/12/07/news/cesareo_inghilterra-72916475/
Use google translate.

DrankSangriaInThePark · 07/12/2013 20:55

Some of us don't need to sweetpie.

WestmorlandSausage · 07/12/2013 20:59

DrankSangria unfortunately I think your last sentence is going to get that post deleted Grin

WestmorlandSausage · 07/12/2013 20:59

of your post at 20:45 that is.

Or sued if past form is anything to go by

DrankSangriaInThePark · 07/12/2013 21:05

Can I say alleged dribbling fool? I haven't, after all, named anyone......

He would of course, have to prove in a court of law, that he was not the dribbling fool to whom I alluded. Or was, as the case may be.....

Either way, I think it's a win-win on the Sangria side.

I don't doubt I shall be deleted. But I bet HQ will silently be cheering us on as well.

Sooooo. That Repubblca link JohnBoy......it is supposedly directly referencing Mr Mostyn's ruling of the 23rd August. Is that the one which has been copied ad infinitum onto these threads? I'm just off to have a looky. To check that the Italian press, well known the world over for its integrity is quoting correctly and all.....

WestmorlandSausage · 07/12/2013 21:13

considering how much the lib dems have pissed off the students and various others by going into the coalition you would have thought that they would be taking a more sympathetic stance towards those left most likely to vote lib dem who (massive sweeping generalisation) are likely to be 'liberal lefties' such as social workers, family court lawyers and all those other professions involved in social care.

Spero · 07/12/2013 21:15

Will it condemn me as 'baying' 'unhinged' and/or 'awful' if I say that Carpe Vinum's evading uncomfortable questions module has given me the best laugh of my day?

wetaugust - I have tried to engage with you respectfully. I can appreciate from what you have shared from your personal history, you have many reasons to be distrustful of professionals who deal with children and families in crisis.

But I struggle to see why you find people on this thread to be 'baying' or 'hysterical'.

exexpat's comment at 19.49 appears to be a model of calm and absolutely necessary questioning.

Would you still wish to come to court with me? I hope you can, then you can judge for yourself how 'baying' 'hysterical' and 'awful' I am.

wetaugust · 07/12/2013 21:15

Why say 'dribbling fool' at all?

We all know what you're trying to do - circumvent the Talk Guidelines.

This would be a much better discussion if people remained civil and did not name call.

We have talk guidelines for a purpose. I really dislike reading a thread like this where some of us have posted some really harrowing stories and all I see is juvenile playground behaviour.

Disagree with the man, by all means, but please try to do it in an intelligent manner.

CarpeVinum · 07/12/2013 21:15

Carpe- I have been doing a running translation for (also Italian) dp since last Sunday. It's rather embarrassing really, as I have, for the past 19 years, been singing the praises of UK politicians as a corpora and now he keeps saying to me "and this is an elected politician is it?

Ditto.

I have a sneaking suspition the name "Hemming!" is going to be produced top trump style every time I make a point about the paucity of Italian elected representatives from here on in.

WestmorlandSausage · 07/12/2013 21:16

and yes DrankSangria alleged dribbling fool. we don't know for certain there is any dribbling.

wetaugust · 07/12/2013 21:18

Oh come on Spero - I am not the first poster to complain that this thread has some hysterical ramblings on it.

You are also twisting my words. I never said you were baying and hysterical in court - I would hope that in court you behave in an appropriate manner.

Twisting people's words does not persuade me to your arguments. I make up my own mind.

DrankSangriaInThePark · 07/12/2013 21:18

Anyway, my last post for tonight, as the Mupper Christmas Carol and dd await.....

That link to la Repubblica, the article basically takes the bit in the Mostyn order about the woman not being told about the order made by the judge (I think the order to remove the child after it was born) and dresses it up as her being unaware she was to have the C-section. It might be that is intending to mean the part of the order to remove the child, but that it not how it has been put across into Italian.

Either way, there is nothing new in it, and nor is there in Booker's latest on the Telegraph website, although of course that is in English. It is just rehashing with a different slant the 23rd August ruling. So dunno why Johnboy felt the need to show us it.

Night y'all.