Italian adoption case III

[Juliet123456]

The last thread says all I need to know about those in the system. It also the most legally dangerous thread I have ever seen on mumsnet. I hope someone has been through the posts for libel risk. It also entirely one sided and biased and makes me laugh.

The defensiveness of those involved in this area will hopefully disappear once we have the openness that JH and indeed many others are seeking and obtaining as the judges increasingly accept that it helps everyone to understand what are very difficult decisions - parents, children and lawyers and social workers and expert witnesses in this field.

It will continue to be important always to get to the facts and where possible publish the facts. I continue to believe that almost any of us could have our children removed if the state set its mind to that. If publishing more decisions and giving rights to parents and those involved and the children to write what they like on twitter, facebook and the like and to let parents and children even when separated communicate and talk about any issues they choose will help then let us hope the law continues down that course.

[nennypops]

Maryz, he's not a spambot, he's a coward.

[Oodmaiden]

Re John Hemmings - there are posts on this thread which come close to discussing his opinion on Ian Joseph in some matters...

see posts at 10:59 and 11:08

Not exactly categorical... but there you go...

[Spero]

Right. I am off to watch Despicable Me 2 with my daughter who has already been ignored far too much this evening as I tap furiously away at the keyboard.

I have made my points. I stand by everything I say and I will answer any questions about anything, anyone wants to ask.

JH is 'having a drink' and repeating the same comment over and over again.

I just don't know what to say. My mind is boggling. The fact that he thinks behaving like this on a public forum is either sensible or appropriate probably tells you all you need to know.

Good evening all.

[wetaugust]

Thank you for the reply Spero. It's the court that I would be interested to see at first-hand but I probably experienced it myself during my divorce when we went in front of the Family Court judge to have our care agreements rubber-stamped.

I've seen how SS operate on the TV (the Bristol series was particularly enlightening) and actually get rather exasperated with their faffing around insisting that the birth parent be given chance after chance after chance in what everyone knows are hopeless cases.

I believe that people would be more inclined to trust SS and cooperate with if the Family Courts and Court of Protection were less secretive, so their judgements could be scrutinsed by as broad a range of people as possible. Names obviously could be redcated, and in the majority of proceedings this would provide sufficient anonymity.

SS could also improve their image by questioing their own actions / inactions more frequently. Not every child is always brought up in the perfect family - they need to start understanding that.

I do have considerable experience of adoption - as someone whose childhood was affected by having an adopted father with a huge chip on his shoulder as a result, and an adopted sibling. No one considered my views on adoption when I came home from school to find a new baby in the house - that's how they did things when I was young.

Where you have secrecy the implication is that you have something to hide.

[nennypops]

Interesting quote from a post of JH's in that other thread:

I think it is a good idea for politicians to discuss things in online fora and to be accountable in that way.

Yet he refuses to discuss things to enable himself to be accountable.

[johnhemming]

Here is something else that I would argue is relevant to this thread.
www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/10500854/Judge-must-unravel-saga-of-baby-snatched-from-womb.html
In posting this I don't comment on anything that is said. I may or may not agree with what is being said, but won't answer questions as to whether I agree or not. I will answer questions as to what my view on an issue is.

[johnhemming]

Here's a good question:
"While you're at it, Mr Hemming, how about another question. What precisely is your evidence for the proposition that social services departments are currently given targets to increase adoptions by taking children into care, rather than by pursuing adoptions for children already in care?"

In the main the problem is that whereas in the past children would have been returned to their parents now they are adopted. This was in fact predicted believe it or not by BASW.

To take a child into care only requires "reasonable grounds" not proven evidence (S38 Children Act 1989). That gets an interim care order.

It is not unreasonable to allow state action on an interim basis on less evidence than a permanent basis. The problem is that interim becomes permanent. That, however, is a question about the process following the interim action. (and the thresholds for interim action for care rather than supervision orders)

It is also the case that a much higher proportion of babies are taken into care now than used to be the case (of a higher number of children taken into care). Furthermore it appears on the basis of Significant Incident Reports that more children die of child abuse and neglect than used to. (that is in England).

[nennypops]

Right, perhaps JH could tell us whether the answers he gave on the thread to which Oodmaiden has linked are the ones he's referring to. Because we've now done as he asked and commented on them, so perhaps we could move on.

If we interpret those comments extremely generously as giving his views on the issues of co-operating with the authorities and taking children abroad, that still leaves an awful lot of areas of Ian Josephs' advice that are not answered, so perhaps you could do so now?

[nennypops]

JH: In posting this I don't comment on anything that is said. I may or may not agree with what is being said, but won't answer questions as to whether I agree or not.

So what part of that amounts to you being accountable as you proudly boasted previously?

[nennypops]

JH at 19.23 you purported to answer my question (which you said was a good one) in which I asked what precisely was your evidence for the proposition in question. However, not one part of your answer gives that evidence. As it's such a good question, do you think you could do so now?

[nennypops]

Mr Hemming, my view on Christopher Booker's article in the Telegraph is the same as Maryz's. What is yours?

[CarpeVinum]

Why would anyone do it? It's just bizarre

Perhaps he was off sick the day the politicans' "Evading Answering Uncomfortable Questions" course covered the "how to do it without actually announcing you intend to evade answering uncomfortable questions" module ?

I've been doing a running translation for DH into Italian. His face is a picture.

[exexpat]

Mr Hemming, since you are refusing on this thread to categorically condemn the line taken and advice given by Ian Josephs, the logical conclusion would be that you actually support him.

As a member of parliament, and a parent yourself, do you not find his advice not to report sexual abuse of children to the police to be dangerously irresponsible?

[JaquelineHyde]

JH can you answer any of my questions from the previous threads?

One in particular I would love you to address is whether you will be there for the poor lady these threads are all about in 2, 5, or 10 years time. When all the hype has died down and she is of no use to you politically will you be there checking on her and any children she manages to keep in contact with. Will you be there to support her through her next possible psychotic break?

[johnhemming]

So what part of that amounts to you being accountable as you proudly boasted previously?

I believe I should be accountable for what I do and say, but I cannot be accountable for what someone else does or says. There is an element in this of party accountability - hence I should be accountable for the actions of the government. However, what people write in articles is up to them and not something I am accountable for.