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Italian adoption case III

999 replies

Juliet123456 · 07/12/2013 09:29

The last thread says all I need to know about those in the system. It also the most legally dangerous thread I have ever seen on mumsnet. I hope someone has been through the posts for libel risk. It also entirely one sided and biased and makes me laugh.

The defensiveness of those involved in this area will hopefully disappear once we have the openness that JH and indeed many others are seeking and obtaining as the judges increasingly accept that it helps everyone to understand what are very difficult decisions - parents, children and lawyers and social workers and expert witnesses in this field.

It will continue to be important always to get to the facts and where possible publish the facts. I continue to believe that almost any of us could have our children removed if the state set its mind to that. If publishing more decisions and giving rights to parents and those involved and the children to write what they like on twitter, facebook and the like and to let parents and children even when separated communicate and talk about any issues they choose will help then let us hope the law continues down that course.

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CarpeVinum · 07/12/2013 18:25

I refer you to the answer I gave previously.

I am not inclined to find the answer someone else can.

The answer lives in your head, but you want somebody else to thread trawl and remind you what it is ?

johnhemming · 07/12/2013 18:26

The answer lives on Mumsnet:

"Lisa Longstaff of WAR says:
"We are outraged at the double injustice faced by this mother who reported her partner to the police and testified in court, after he raped and tried to kill her. Instead of being praised for her courage in coming forward to protect her children and the public from an extremely violent man, she is being blamed for the violence and the trauma it has caused her, and faces losing her children as a result."

Spero · 07/12/2013 18:27

Done.

This is what I said in 2012

Mr Hemming as advisor to parents in care proceedings
I am worried that the real danger in Mr Hemming’s activities is not simply that he campaigns on a false basis but that he advises people, both in person and via his and other websites.
There are many other websites he links to from his own site. The linked sites include Ian Joseph’s site Forced Adoption [http://www.forced-adoption.com/introduction.asp]. In my view, this site contains extreme and dangerous advice. Mr Joseph sets out his ‘Golden Rules’ for parents involved in care proceedings [http://www.forced-adoption.com/introduction.asp#goldenrulessummary] which include:
‘Never ask them [Social Workers] for help, think very carefully before you report a violent partner (especially if the abuse is only verbal) or even a sexual molester (especially if the children beg you to say nothing) as once social workers or police are involved you risk losing your children for "failing to protect them
IF the "SS" threaten to take your children for adoption, make sure they never forget you .Hug them tight at "last contact" so they cannot easily be removed while you repeat to them that wicked people are stealing them for money ,and to say no to adoption when they try to give them a horrible new mummy and daddy !

THIS AT LEAST SHOULD HELP TO SABOTAGE ANY UNWANTED ADOPTIONS AND MAKE SURE YOUR KIDS WILL ALWAYS REMEMBER YOU AND GET IN TOUCH LATER .Not many "adopters" will want to take in a child who has been told to say "NO" to adoption in any case !

In my view such advice, if followed, clearly puts children at risk of continuing violent and sexual abuse or serious emotional abuse.
Mr Joseph’s site is an affiliated site upon the Families for Justice Website i.e. an organisation that has ‘agreed to work with Justice for Families to improve the situation in respect of Public Family Law’. I have repeatedly asked Mr Hemming on the mumsnet forum to explicitly disassociate himself from Mr Joseph, given the extreme and dangerous nature of his views. Mr Hemming refuses.
Parents involved in care proceedings are likely to be undergoing one of the most difficult and stressful periods of their lives. They and their children are likely to be very vulnerable. I am very worried that they people may trust Mr Hemming’s advice simply because he holds a responsible public position as a Member of Parliament.
Given that Mr Hemming is very clear that he believes the whole system is ‘evil’ and that children are removed on the basis of lies to meet government targets, I am afraid it is likely when he advises parents in care proceedings that he will encourage them to disengage from legal proceedings or even to flee the jurisdiction. Mr Hemming openly states that he has helped parents avoid child protection investigations.
Therefore, his actions potentially put already vulnerable children at even greater risk of harm.
I attach to this letter a copy of a message sent to me by a user of the mumsnet forum. She has given her permission for me to refer to this. It speaks for itself.
I imagine it must be terrifying for a parent facing care proceedings to be told by a Member of Parliament that there are government targets in place to remove her children that experts will tell lies in court to ensure her children are removed, her own lawyers won’t help and thus she has no choice but to leave the country. It must be equally frightening for any child in that situation.
What records does Mr Hemming keep of the advice he gives parents and the outcomes for their families after they have taken his advice? In particular, what are the outcomes for the children?
Despite frequent complaints about the ‘secrecy’ of the family courts he appears to be utterly unaccountable for the advice he gives and the consequences of that advice.

Maryz · 07/12/2013 18:27

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Maryz · 07/12/2013 18:32

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nennypops · 07/12/2013 18:33

Really, Mr Hemming, how hard would it be to say whether you associate yourself or do not associate yourself with the specific points quoted in relation to Ian Josephs? After all, if you don't, it would only require a few seconds to say so. If you support some but not others, you could do a really quick cut and paste job putting "Agree" or "Disagree" against each point. It really is ludicrous to suggest that someone looking for your views should spend hours looking through everything mentioning you in the Mumsnet records, particularly given that they have had to delete a fair number of your posts.

If you're still not prepared to answer, we'll have to take it that you agree with Ian Josephs, and judge you accordingly.

nennypops · 07/12/2013 18:35

There's a bit of a pattern emerging of JH desperately trying to divert attention by referring to other cases. Doesn't work, Mr Hemming.

johnhemming · 07/12/2013 18:36

"Lisa Longstaff of WAR says:
"We are outraged at the double injustice faced by this mother who reported her partner to the police and testified in court, after he raped and tried to kill her. Instead of being praised for her courage in coming forward to protect her children and the public from an extremely violent man, she is being blamed for the violence and the trauma it has caused her, and faces losing her children as a result."

And I do think people should go to the police.

nennypops · 07/12/2013 18:37

While you're at it, Mr Hemming, how about another question. What precisely is your evidence for the proposition that social services departments are currently given targets to increase adoptions by taking children into care, rather than by pursuing adoptions for children already in care?

Maryz · 07/12/2013 18:39

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

wetaugust · 07/12/2013 18:39

So if anyone wants to contact me to talk about things more, or even to come and visit court with me, please feel free.

As you wrote to Dawn, does that mean you are her constituent because, if so, I'd like to take up your offer in the new year.

The problem in this country is that the general public is now so suspicious and contempuous of social services that it will avoid having any contact with them. The feeling is that they exercise an extreme form of political correctness and, as a result, any parent could find themselves on the receiving end of SS attention for very little reason. You hear people saying that SS only go after the easy targets.

You may disgree with that but that's what people I meet in real life think about SS.

That's the public perception. That's what SS have to overcome to be seen as a benign force, let alone a force for good.

Almost a decade ago now my son experienced a severe decline in his MH due to the unrelenting physical and mental abuse he received at school, something school prefered to call 'anti-social behaviour' (much gentler term than ABH /GBH).

He was referred to CAMHS where he was interviewed for a few minutes by a locum Consultant Psychiatriast and diagnosed with a severe mental illness (the same sort that the Italian lady is supposed to been experiencing immediately before she was sectioned).

In an effort to help my son I read extensively about the illness he had been diagnosed as having and soon realised that this was a misdiagnosis. It was clear he actually had ASD - and the reason he had been so badly bullied at school and had a breakdown in his MH was because he was 'different' and therefore a target for 'anti-social behaviour' at school.

At the same time as I was realising that a misdiagnosis had been made, the Community Paed, Educational Psychcologist and members of the LA SEN Panel were arriving, quite independently, behind my back at the same conclusion.

However, when I tried to raise the possibility that my son may have been misdiagnosed with the locum consulatnat psychiatrist who issued that dx I was met with hostility, raising of voice, and threats. The main threat being that he would section my son to ensure he received the treatment that his (mis)diagnosis warranted.

Can you imagine yourself in that position? A threat has been made to take your child into care on the basis of what you believe (and other professionals believed) was a dangerous misdiagnosis.

The immediate thought of his father and I was to engage legal help. The first solicitor I rang obviously thought I was unhinged myself as it was quite an incredible story I was telling her. She sneeringly said that she didn't handle 'that type of thing'.

The next solicitor I tried agreed to listen, agreed that the dx was almost certainly wrong and started writing to the necessary authorities. Something I had already done but, as a mere parent, had just been ignored.

Meanwhile, DS's father and I were actively planning to move our family to either Ireland or Spain to remove DS from the jurisdiction of this rogue and incompetent locum psychiatrist.

It took a further 4 months and several thousnads £ of our own money, to have this misdiagnosis overturned by competent medical professionals and for DS's needs to start to be addressed by the NHS and LA.

By this stage I was quite unwell myself with anxiety - who wouldn't be? I appealed for help to SS. It clear that DS needed a residential placement that would help him undertand his condition and provide the specialist support he would require in rebuilding his life after his breakdown. DS, meanwhile was languishing as a day patient in an adolescent psychiatric unit waiting for a residential placement to be found and funded by the LA, who were dragging their heels. I was told that before DS could secure such a placement an LA board would need to convene with SS representation.

SS knew I was at the end of my thether trying to deal with a child who was so unwell that they had been wrongly diagnosed as having a serious mental illness, while trying to secure him the help he needed from an apathetic Education Service, while so unwell myself by this whole experience that I was off work with anxiety, but still SS refused to intervene. I asked SS outright what would happen if, as I was a single parent, I could no longer care for my son and was told that they would expect his father to care for him. Anything rather than assist my DS to secure the expensive placement everyone knew he needed. Any respect I had for SS evaporated at that point.

It was clear that SS refused to assist DS because they knew that if they did so the Education Service within the LA would probably ask them to chip in for the very expensive specialist residential placement that the LA had already determined he should be provided with after his stautory education ended at post-16 i.e. when he was no longer the LA's responsibiity so the LA did not have to fund that placement. Very cynical behaviour from the LA.

As someone with 37 years experience in public service I'd consider myself a parent who was quite competent in dealing with agencies and other authorities, but I have never experienced such a group of vile, apathetic, uncaring, incompetent jobsworths that I met during my son's illness. I can quite imagine a less able parent being totally steamrollered by them. I was lucky that I could afford legal assistance as it was the ony thing that finally got these people to respond. And legal aid was not available in this case as it dealt primarily with SENs.

In retrospect I should probably have let the rogue locum consultant psychiatrist go ahead and section my son. That would have provided my son with legal representation to fight the ridiculous diagnosis, but having seen at first hand the way SS, LA and even NHS operated I was not prepared to take that risk.

So mistakes do happen. Innocent people get hurt and that colours their opinions permanently.

So I can understand while parents flee abroad - we almost did without any encouragement from JH. I can understand why some people would never willingly contact SS even over very serious matters - I wouldn't and that's without any encouragement not to do so from IJ.

People make up their own minds on matters based on their own experiences.

After what my son and I were subjected to I am entitled to hold the views I do.

Juliet123456 · 07/12/2013 18:40

There a bit (a lot ) of pattern emerging of those with vested interests going so over the top that most of those reading would think there were indeed something amiss with the system so do carry on.

Also that is the old advice parents have always known made sense from the 1800s to now. Generally best to keep away from the authorities except in extremis. It remains wise today and has been sensible for generations. Most of us do not even need to be told it is so. It is self evident.

OP posts:
WestmorlandSausage · 07/12/2013 18:41

Actually its not that difficult to find what he has said about Ian in the past on MN took less than 60 secs for me to find. And having read what he did say ... all one line of it, it I'm not entirely sure why he is now trying to dodge the question.
Bizarre.

CarpeVinum · 07/12/2013 18:42

The answer lives on Mumsnet

And in your head.

Do you not remember what you wrote last time and prefer not to respond due to concerns that you might contradict yourself ?

nennypops · 07/12/2013 18:42

Right, that's three times you've repeated one out of context quote in relation to a case that has nothing to do with the one under discussion. It doesn't answer the questions that have been put. The fact that you are so pleased with that specific quote does suggest that you fully endorse what Ian Josephs has said when he advised the parents of children who have been physically and sexually abused by their partners not to report it to the police or social services. You apparently therefore fully support, for instance, Baby P's mother.

If I'm wrong about that, and in fact you condemn this advice from Ian Josephs, do say so.

nennypops · 07/12/2013 18:44

Juliet, do tell us precisely who you suggest has a vested interest? Just for the record, yet again, I have none whatsoever.

Maryz · 07/12/2013 18:46

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

nennypops · 07/12/2013 18:46

Juliet: Also that is the old advice parents have always known made sense from the 1800s to now. Generally best to keep away from the authorities except in extremis.

But the point is that we are currently discussing the advice of Ian Josephs to parents that they should still keep away from the authorities even when in extremis. I take it that you would accept that your child being physically or sexually abused by your partner is "in extremis?"

johnhemming · 07/12/2013 18:49

It doesn't answer the questions that have been put.
The questions that have been put are not relevant to the case in the thread. Furthermore I have answered them previously if you can be bothered to look.

I think the comments by women against rape are important. Actually I think they should be more concerning to UK residents than the case where a visitor lost her baby and was forced to have a caesarean.

Hence I will repeat the comments. I will make no further comments on Ian Joseph's statements. I have already done that on Mumsnet. Someone else can find them. I will have a drink.

"Lisa Longstaff of WAR says:
"We are outraged at the double injustice faced by this mother who reported her partner to the police and testified in court, after he raped and tried to kill her. Instead of being praised for her courage in coming forward to protect her children and the public from an extremely violent man, she is being blamed for the violence and the trauma it has caused her, and faces losing her children as a result."

Spero · 07/12/2013 18:49

Juliet.

I have cited what JH says. I have explained why it so disturbs me.
He will not respond.

In what way are those alarmed by his activities 'going over the top'?

Does nothing you have read in last three threads give you any pause for thought that the problems in the child protection system are not the ones JH identifies?

wet august - you say that mistakes are made and people's perceptions of the system are for ever clouded. I completely agree.
I am no longer in Bristol but continue to work in Bristol and throughout the SW. When I contacted the Bar Council about inviting people with me to court as a 'mini pupil' , they said there would not be a problem so long as all involved agreed, and this must include the Judge. Clearly, it is well within people's rights to object to strangers coming into their court proceedings.

so I could not promise you could come into a court hearing, I am certainly happy to meet up and talk more about what I do and how I do it and my experiences of social workers in care proceedings.

Anything I can do to help people understand what is going on, whilst respecting the law around confidentiality, I will do.

Maryz · 07/12/2013 18:52

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Maryz · 07/12/2013 18:52

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johnhemming · 07/12/2013 18:54

"Lisa Longstaff of WAR says:
"We are outraged at the double injustice faced by this mother who reported her partner to the police and testified in court, after he raped and tried to kill her. Instead of being praised for her courage in coming forward to protect her children and the public from an extremely violent man, she is being blamed for the violence and the trauma it has caused her, and faces losing her children as a result."

Spero · 07/12/2013 18:55

Wet august, I am sorry to read what your family went through. I wouldn't deny for a moment that kind of thing goes on - I am disabled and have had my fair share of run ins over the years with arrogant, stupid doctors who didn't know what the fuck they were doing.

Some professionals do find it hard to be challenged when they have formed a view. They are idiots. But they do exist.

But I hope you understand after reading these threads that what is causing all the problem is the assertion that these idiots and these kind of mistakes are part of a deliberate conspiracy to snatch a woman's baby from her womb.

Even now I can't bear to go into a hospital but I don't think that the entire medical profession is part of an evil cabal out to get me. I just got unlucky with the orthopaedic surgeons I met.

nennypops · 07/12/2013 18:55

JH: The questions that have been put are not relevant to the case in the thread. Furthermore I have answered them previously if you can be bothered to look.

Oh, the irony. JH has repeatedly tried to divert this thread away from uncomfortable questions which are clearly directly pertinent to it, and he now refuses to answer those questions at all.

He could have given a quick yes or no to the specific question about Ian Josephs' advice to parents with violent and/or abusive questions, but instead he chose to give a much longer answer failing to do so; and he chose to quote, for the fourth time, a comment which related to a rape case, not a case of child abuse.

So, I think we can take it that the answer is that he doesn't condemn Ian Josephs' advice, and we can draw all the appropriate conclusions from that.

By the way, Mr Hemming, I asked you an entirely separate question about your allegation about social services adoption targets to bring children into care. How about answering that one at least?