Italian adoption case III

[Juliet123456]

The last thread says all I need to know about those in the system. It also the most legally dangerous thread I have ever seen on mumsnet. I hope someone has been through the posts for libel risk. It also entirely one sided and biased and makes me laugh.

The defensiveness of those involved in this area will hopefully disappear once we have the openness that JH and indeed many others are seeking and obtaining as the judges increasingly accept that it helps everyone to understand what are very difficult decisions - parents, children and lawyers and social workers and expert witnesses in this field.

It will continue to be important always to get to the facts and where possible publish the facts. I continue to believe that almost any of us could have our children removed if the state set its mind to that. If publishing more decisions and giving rights to parents and those involved and the children to write what they like on twitter, facebook and the like and to let parents and children even when separated communicate and talk about any issues they choose will help then let us hope the law continues down that course.

I don't know what got her fired.

You never sent me that page.

You sent me a page which you claimed would prove your claim about how she for fired.

It did nothing of the sort because it was a page from the Respondents own defence.

which bit of this are you having trouble understanding

The band is flagging now. Tuba player is getting some nasty blisters.

Lake, I see you more at the front with Pom poms.

2, 4, 6, 8 .... Who can't understand the documents he sends?

And on the back it could say 'I never said that and this is not a T. Shirt'

What I did not say was that all social workers are evil. The system is evil.

"and this is not a T. Shirt"

@Spero
Awwww ok then, pom poms girl.
We also must change JH T-shirt, he doesn't like what we wrote on it lol

So all the stuff attributed to you on the FASSIT site. Did you say that?

So what makes the system evil if not the people within it?

@johnhemming I am still waiting for official Italian authorities. No blog articles, their websites please, i.e. Ministero degli Esteri / Farnesina, ambasciatore italiano a Londra o console, or... If you like you can also get the Presidente della regione Toscana.

Ample choice for you for any official confirmation that the case of the Italian mother is what you say it is.
Blogs don't say official stuff, as well as papers.

@Spero isn't that Fassit website the place where the other madman posts? You know, IJ.

It is because the system pressurises people to do things which are wrong. There are people doing a good job in it.

However, we really should not have a government minister sitting in an office in Whitehall stating what should happen in individual cases across the country then having that enforced through a judicial system that has inbuilt biases.

It is not intentionally evil. It is the way things work. There is a complacency about the way the system works. There is bad behaviour such as the solicitors that collude with some social workers to ensure that the solicitors' clients lose their cases. That is spectacularly awful.

However, the main problems are systematic. The end result is that we have a set of awful outcomes whilst spending masses of money.

I have the letters written by UFTDU to the government in italy and the government's response. They are in Italian. I have asked if they can be published.

FGS, we did that issue about the further assessments before. They may not have been done because the situation changed, or because by issuing her recommendation the SW made it impossible or impracticable to get them, or because the judge wouldn't allow time for them, or because the parents abandoned the case, or the child got ill, or whatever. We can't know, because you've chosen not to reveal all the documents.

But what you have produced demonstrates unequivocally that the SW was not dismissed for recommending reunification but for producing the recommendation without waiting for assessments as ordered by her superiors. Please stop trying to pretend that isn't so.

@johnhemming

So the childsnatchers exist and they are evil yet...they don't do it on purpose

Is this a joke?

@johnhemming

Ok, I repeat again.

As an Italian visitor or resident abroad you can have help / support from:

• Ministero degli Esteri, definito La Farnesina (foreign Office)
• Ambasciata italiana
• Consolato italiano

I am NOT interested in any association or society and I care even less what the government replied to them because their concern is equal to what I could write on my blog, i.e. It counts nothing!

OK, chapter and verse, please, for that nonsense about solicitors colluding with SWs to ensure their clients lose their case. And I expect to see at least twenty examples, otherwise it wouldn't be true, would it?

lakedistrictbabe>Honestly... Are you really that ignorant... I mean how can you be so

unaware of another country customs, associations and societies...and
anything else?

So what are the UFTDU then?

And I expect to see at least twenty examples, otherwise it wouldn't be true, would it?
It obviously doesn't happen every time. However, I was told this by a social worker who had personal experience.

Right.

We all know how you described this case initially.

You said SW and doctors had colluded to tear a child from a mother's womb and they did this to meet Government targets for snatching babies.

And now you are trying to back peddle and waffle a bit about the system pressurising people.

So. Do you accept your initial characterisation of this case was irresponsible and sensationalist.

Further. If your new position is that the 'system' pressurises people, what are you doing to change this?

And hint, stirring up sensational headlines for the Daily Mail is not going to count I am afraid.

If I didn't know this was really him, what with all the previous complaint and the emails etc I would think this was some horrible spoof account.

This is an absolute risible farce.

My low opinion of politicians sinks even lower when I see that this is what we are expected to accept as the quality of our elected representatives.

On that truly bleak note I wish you all goodnight. I suspect my chihuahua has crapped in the kitchen and cleaning that up will be by far the most enjoyable and intellectually satisfying task of the last half an hour.

spero: try putting forward what I actually say. The media are not that far off, but often get things slightly wrong. What I say on my blog (that is not a guest post) is what I say. What I say in Hansard in fact at times can be slightly changed, but I will debate that.

I am not going to respond to your misrepresentations of my arguments.

Try finding a link and quoting from it.

I am going somewhere soon and it isn't the pub. However, it will stop me commenting further. Hence try to put a bit of effort into saying something that is actually an accurate representation of what I personally have said perhaps with a link to an independent report.

I have a lot of meetings tomorrow and my regular appointment at the Brownies (where I go believe it or not to the pub whilst my daughter goes go Brownies). I might manage to comment tomorrow.

However, it is worth spero doing a really well argued and evidenced post so that I can spot it amongst the usual drivel and ensure that I respond substantively.

@johnhemming

UFTDU is a ridiculous, uninfluential society. Maybe Amnesty Italia could have more credibility.
I spoke with a member of an Italian bipolar illness association. They are not happy John, not happy that you and somebody else put the Italian mother through all this, you showed no respect towards her.

And don't give me all the story about British government breaking the law because Ms. P. is an Italian citizen. I know very well what are the duties and rights of an Italian citizen abroad, and if you have any kind of accident abroad, ignorance of the laws of the country you are visiting or residing in is NOT an excuse in itself

Hope I made myself clear.

I sent you a well argued and evidenced complaint letter in 2012 which you ignored.

Perhaps you could start with that.

@johnhemming

So are we misrepresenting what you say?

Or is it you bending the truth to make it as you would like it to be?

Goodnight, Mr. Hemming.

So your statement that lots of solicitors collude with SWs to lose their clients' cases is based on hearsay evidence from one unnamed SW. It is a total load of rubbish, isn't it?

OHMYGOODGOD I can't believe JH is still churning out this thing about lawyers for birthparents colluding with social workers so that their clients lose their case, and (drum roll.......) the evidence is (further drum roll.............) a social worker told him this WOW who can argue with that evidence........!

He was churning this out on threads 2 maybe 3 years ago.

Of course you've said the system is evil - do you not have the courage of your convictions?

Your post is very clear LDB but of course JH won't understand it.

I can barely believe that JH has popped up here answering some post by maryz and claig who dipped out long ago, and then posting something about Russian law and his total inability to differentiate fact from fantasy about the social worker "sacked" for wanting a child to remain with his family and churning out something a social worker allegedly said to him over 3 years ago. I think this does prove however that we are all wasting our emotional energy on him as I think he is of diminished responsibility. He also has grandiose delusions about his importance, evidenced by his comment that he is "writing to the MHT" wow that'll show 'em.........

The person who is going to be hurt by him the most is the Italian woman who has the misfortune to suffer from a severe psychotic illness.

SO I am off for a long weekend to celebrate my daughter-in-law's 40th birthday. BUT please can I join the band Spero - I'm good on the symbols...........

As I type this I am listening to the 10 pm news again drawing attention to the dire situation in Children's Services in Birmingham City Council. Apparently one safeguarding team that should have 24 members, has just 4...............my god JH there aren't enough social workers to snatch babies, so you should be able to rest easily in your bed.

I see now why he is not raising this issue in the House of Commons - because while ever BCC's Children's Services are severely under resourced, loving parents all over the city can be reassured that their babies will not be snatched.

RE UFTDU

It is worth bearing in mind that "bella figura" (looking good) matters more than substance here in some aspects of life. And I guess that is what is behind the squillions of associations, all with an acronym, glossy web prsence and a logo, that seem to breed even faster than the mosquitoes do. Becuase if you set one up, or become part of one it can mean something posh and important sounding on a CV, without actually having to do all that much in terms of grabbing yourself something that looks presigous.

Which is why an Italian national would be ever so slightly "meh" when unheard of entities get bandied around in attempt to sound like a postion was being taken seriously.

Using google.it and doing a notzie (news) search I found 7 results for UFTDU. And they are all in French. As contrast (and please bear in mind that animal rights don't even get on the totom pole of importance here, dumping your pet on the motorway becuase you don't want to pay for kennels is a problem nobody seems keen on resolving. Niether is drowning or dumping the kittens of your cat becuase sterilzation is a cost too far for "just" an animal. Which is how I ended up with six dogs and eight cats) ENPA an association for the protection of animals has pages and pages and pages of news results. The same goes for LIPU, the group who thinks birds (the wild ones) need help.

Now I know it might seem odd, using animal orgs and not human ones. But those two are amoung the few that Italians recognise, that have achieved a high profile becuase they aren't "vanity" associations, and to some extent can crowbar gov into paying attention to the issues they raise. Nothing like as much as I'd like personally, but at least they can get the gov's ear and the media's attnetion becuase the electorate and the readership prick up their eats when they hear the acronym. The impact they have might be fairly toothless, but over here just getting any attention at all from officals/the public is a win.

I hope that sheds a little light on why "me and UFTDU are talking about this and taking very seriously indeed!" doesn't carry any wieght behind it from an Italian or Expat in Italy persective.