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Italian adoption case III

999 replies

Juliet123456 · 07/12/2013 09:29

The last thread says all I need to know about those in the system. It also the most legally dangerous thread I have ever seen on mumsnet. I hope someone has been through the posts for libel risk. It also entirely one sided and biased and makes me laugh.

The defensiveness of those involved in this area will hopefully disappear once we have the openness that JH and indeed many others are seeking and obtaining as the judges increasingly accept that it helps everyone to understand what are very difficult decisions - parents, children and lawyers and social workers and expert witnesses in this field.

It will continue to be important always to get to the facts and where possible publish the facts. I continue to believe that almost any of us could have our children removed if the state set its mind to that. If publishing more decisions and giving rights to parents and those involved and the children to write what they like on twitter, facebook and the like and to let parents and children even when separated communicate and talk about any issues they choose will help then let us hope the law continues down that course.

OP posts:
Mignonette · 08/12/2013 12:10

What foolish behaviour. Too cowardly to comment outright in print because the person cannot remember what he himself wrote and doesn't want yet another searchable record of his incompetence and unfitness to represent anybody or anything other than a lost cat in Parliament.

Anybody honest and reasonable would have immediately linked to the words dissasociating him from a person who advocates the covering up of sexual abuse.

And I am absolutely sure that this person has stored copies of every single thread he has ever infected here on MN. All available at the touch of a finger on a rather sticky keyboard.

I am no longer mentioning by name because I am not willing to fuel his apparent Superman Complex.

TheOneWithTheNicestSmile · 08/12/2013 13:06

\link{http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2520015/Marino-Pacchieri-Why-I-DONT-believe-daughter-Alessandra-baby.html\DM again - her own father believes the decision to remove the baby from her was correct}

He doesn't trust her to continue taking her medication, whatever she is saying atm, & if she stopped the baby would be at risk

Lilka · 08/12/2013 13:11

I think most of us are on the same side yes, Juliet

I do think that was mostly a very good article

However I actually disagree that this was a rush. The baby is 15 months old, and in the life of a young child, 15 months is a very long time indeed. For instance, if a baby is neglected and abused from 0-15 months, that's enough to create significant and extremely long term psychological problems, or if a baby is fostered for 15 months, at the end of it removing that baby from it's foster carers is very traumatic for the baby, it's extremely scary and confusing to lose your mummy (foster carer) at 15 months

If this baby was 6 months old, I would say that it was a rush. But 15 months is not rushing IMHO. I think anyone who believes that babies should routinely spend 2-3 years in care before being adopted is not thinking of the children's needs. Only in extreme cases should a child be in care that long without any decisions being made

The other thing is that this baby can't be adopted in Italy, so it's a choice between foster care in Italy or adoption here, and that is a very different thing

If the baby could have been adopted in Italy quickly just like over here then I would definitely support that, but it would be very cruel to sentence this baby to foster care/orphanage for 17 years and deny her the opportunity to know what most children can take for granted

johnhemming · 08/12/2013 13:11

Spero: Absent clear documentary proof a social worker was sacked for recommending reunification I afraid I just don't believe it.

I have the local authority's response to the ET1. On the assumption that your email address has not changed since you proposed to the Bar Council that you wouldn't insult me on mumsnet any more I have emailed Page 7 of that response which proves my case.

Maryz · 08/12/2013 13:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Lilka · 08/12/2013 13:19

The other thing is contact in foster care

The older child has probably been removed from their parents for abuse, neglect, or long term very serious problems. Unmonitered constant contact at best has the potential to cause problems for the child and destabilise the placements, at worst the parent will continue to abuse the child and harm them

In some cases, lots of contact might be a good idea, but it must be case by case, never ever a blanket thing

Also, I see no reason why a parent should be allowed to tell their, say, 7 year old child, "you've been stolen by evil nasty people, and I want you to make trouble for them so they stop kidnapping you and send you back home to mummy"

That's EXACTLY what plenty of parents would tell their children if they had the chance, no matter how much of a big fat lie it is. Because all they can think about is what they want, they are unable to consider how their words will harm and upset their child.

We have to protect children from this kind of thing, not expose them to it

On the post adoption side, contact is a minefield, and 'reunions' (facebook, unsupervised face to face contact) in teenage years are frequently extremely damaging to the child and the family and problematic. Teens are very vulnerable and lots of contact can seriously harm them. I've got the T-Shirt myself. And I've also heard from and read the stories of other distraught families who've been so harmed by contact

Maryz · 08/12/2013 13:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CarpeVinum · 08/12/2013 13:26

I don't think too many of the people who believe the child should be returned over here have a great deal of knowledge of the realities here and how actions v non actions and details may have a vastly different significance when placed in the context of another social landscape.

Who, of all the people deemed vital in terms of life-connection with this child, high tailed it to Britian to be at the very least a familiar face for a woman facing what can be a terrifying crisis, even when it isn't in an alien enviroment, all in another language ? Who shot over to try to bond and express a "deed as well as word" connection with an infant born in so much less than happy circumstances ?

If the answer is nobody, then that may well have been a factor in why the Italian authorities appear to have little enthusiasm for bringing the baby back here.

Because there is NO equivilent welfare state in Italy. There is NOT the same emphasis on providing economic aid, professional support and resorces for a family knee deep in mire. The family/extended family/local community are the safety net here. If the family does not have an evident family/community support network to aid them in coping with a mentally ill family member and two children when a significant crisis hits then that does not bode well for family/community support being proffered when they have to cope with the additional pressures of creating connections and a bond with a third child who is in some form of care.

There are too other complicating factors that cause barriers and pressures here that probably don't resonate with a British mindset.

Multiculuralism is new here. In terms of attitudes, think 1970s. Not becuase Italians are "backward" simply becuase they started the journey so very very much later.

Attitudes towards mental health still carry a signicantly higher degree of stigma and a significantly lower degree of sensitivity. Up the road from me the church performs exorcisms every Wednesday night. I grew pretty weary of people putting pressure on us to let the preist get the devil (more commonly known as bipolar) out of MIL and it left me heartsore that the implication was that "mad = bad".

There is much social pressure in terms of "blood" and "there's a cradle for every baby". The fact that the grandparents did not take the child (and I don't blame them considering what is already on their plate) will quite possibly leave them open to a temperature drop on the social network front. Which could leave them trying to form bonds in already difficult circs with the added stress of a frosty landscape of social disapproval.

Thy anonimity of the child has been compromised by the revelation of the identity of the mother. And if things run to typical form I expect family members to be featured in the press some time soon as well. The Italian press is intrusive, the Italian word for privacy is ... privacy. There is a reason why the word had to be borrowed from English, the concept itself is borrowed and not deeply ingrained in the culture. That is a complication in terms of securing a foster placement anywhere, let alone one within spitting distance geographically of the family of origin. Thus the potential for the child being in an insitituion long term is increased.

I suspect the Italian authorities have not sought her return solely from the desire to protect dwindling resources. I'd leave room for a decsion based at least in part on the specific details of this child's situation in the context of Italian society ... in that they may have concluded there is substantial reason to believe bring her here would work to her short term and long term disadvantage, all aspects considered. That may in part be due to the factors outlined above, but I'd leave pleanty of room for the possibility that there is information regarding the wider family's circumstances (that we are not privvy to) that has also been factored in.

This may change. Becuase at a higher level of authority the fear of "brutta figura" (looking bad) in a non domestic press could override any and all considerations specific to this child.

This child could end up returned to Italy based not on her specific circumstances, needs and long term welfare concerns, but merely to save face. In which case she could spend her childhood in an instituion with weak/inexistant links to her birth family in a soceity that ascribes no small stigma to the colour of her skin, the illness that caused her mother to be unable to care for her ...with her anoninmity compromised to boot.

I wouldn't gamble on that outcome for my own child. So I'm not persuaded to use anybody else's baby as a chip in that kind of outcome roulette.

Lilka · 08/12/2013 13:26

Oh yes I know Ian Josephs wants nothing more than for birth parents to track down their children and harm them in that way. Knowing the results of doing that, it makes me sick what he advises

He also advises parents to tell their 3 year olds that they are being kidnapped and given to horrible people and to come and find them ASAP. He says it's worth traumatising and frightening them. Instead of, you know, just telling your 3 year old that you love them and want them to be happy

Just awful

nennypops · 08/12/2013 13:53

I agree with Maryz - if JH is going to rely on an Employment Tribunal case, he needs to release the full document, not selected extracts. He should also release the claim form and any witness statements and other reports. Otherwise it isn't "absolute proof" of anything.

Mignonette · 08/12/2013 14:37

This man supports the non disclosure of sexual abuse. He is an apologist for sexual abuse and supports the rights of the abuser over the child. Unlike decent honest people he gives a slippery evasive response when he is asked to prove he is not this. Any decent person being accused of such attitudes and beliefs would swiftly disassociate themselves from them instead of pretending to be too busy to post their proof or telling other posters (in a personality disordered manner) to go hunt through pages of (probably deleted threads) to find it.

You cannot deny having these beliefs because that would be a lie wouldn't it?

NanaNina · 08/12/2013 15:57

Juliet I think it was you that said no-one was considering the children - forgive me if it was someone else. You wonder why long term fostering is not a better option than adoption for a baby or young child.

A child has the absolute right for a permanent, stable and loving home in order for him/her to grow into a well adjusted adult. Foster care is not the solution because the child would have to grow up "in the care of the LA" - subjected to 6 monthly reviews and incidentally every review has to consider whether a child can be returned to the care of the birthparents from who he/she was removed by order of the Court.

I appreciate this is something JH would favour as he has the best interest of the parents at heart rather than the welfare of the child. It has long been held by children's services that a child should not spend the majority of their childhood in the "care of the LA" - or rather I should say in the "Looked After System" but it amounts to the same thing. The LA will hold Parental Responsibility for that child and so the foster carers will need to defer to the LA on all sorts of issues related to the child's upbringing.

You say fostering is more expensive for the LA and this is true, but it is not the case that adoptions are not funded. Adoption allowances are available for adopters, albeit on a discretionary basis, rather than the mandatory foster care allowance. SO for any baby or child who has the chance of adoption this is by far the best way of securing the child's future. He/she has a mum and dad and they are safe in the knowledge that no one can remove the child from their care.

Spero - I can hardly contain myself to know about the ET's report that JH has e mailed to you, well at least one page of it!! You may not be at liberty to post on here but I think I can guess what happened.

There would have been a multi disciplinary case conference to consider whether a particular child protection plan was working, or whether the only way to keep a child safe was to apply to the court for the child to be removed, initially on a temporary basis so that the myriad of assessments by different professionals could be undertaken on the parents. The child would be placed in a temporary foster home.

THEN a social worker might have said at the case conference that she was opposed to the plan to remove the child, though the majority decision was for application to be made to the court for an Emergency Protection Order. She might even have continued to state her objections to her team manager and then enough would be enough - she would be sacked ............just like that!!!

I'm being facetious of course.

A social worker can only be sacked for gross misconduct. The disciplinary procedures require that a social worker has to be issued with written warnings and the union rep would be involved, and there would be have to be evidence that the sw was guilty of gross professional misconduct. I only recall one such case and that was a male sw who had an affair with a service user with mental health problems and he refused to stop the affair which was very damaging to the service user. He was issued with so many verbal and written warnings and then the service user became pregnant and claimed the child was his, which he denied and there were all sorts of repercussions and he was finally sacked.

NanaNina · 08/12/2013 15:58

Juliet I think it was you that said no-one was considering the children - forgive me if it was someone else. You wonder why long term fostering is not a better option than adoption for a baby or young child.

A child has the absolute right for a permanent, stable and loving home in order for him/her to grow into a well adjusted adult. Foster care is not the solution because the child would have to grow up "in the care of the LA" - subjected to 6 monthly reviews and incidentally every review has to consider whether a child can be returned to the care of the birthparents from who he/she was removed by order of the Court.

I appreciate this is something JH would favour as he has the best interest of the parents at heart rather than the welfare of the child. It has long been held by children's services that a child should not spend the majority of their childhood in the "care of the LA" - or rather I should say in the "Looked After System" but it amounts to the same thing. The LA will hold Parental Responsibility for that child and so the foster carers will need to defer to the LA on all sorts of issues related to the child's upbringing.

You say fostering is more expensive for the LA and this is true, but it is not the case that adoptions are not funded. Adoption allowances are available for adopters, albeit on a discretionary basis, rather than the mandatory foster care allowance. SO for any baby or child who has the chance of adoption this is by far the best way of securing the child's future. He/she has a mum and dad and they are safe in the knowledge that no one can remove the child from their care.

Spero - I can hardly contain myself to know about the ET's report that JH has e mailed to you, well at least one page of it!! You may not be at liberty to post on here but I think I can guess what happened.

There would have been a multi disciplinary case conference to consider whether a particular child protection plan was working, or whether the only way to keep a child safe was to apply to the court for the child to be removed, initially on a temporary basis so that the myriad of assessments by different professionals could be undertaken on the parents. The child would be placed in a temporary foster home.

THEN a social worker might have said at the case conference that she was opposed to the plan to remove the child, though the majority decision was for application to be made to the court for an Emergency Protection Order. She might even have continued to state her objections to her team manager and then enough would be enough - she would be sacked ............just like that!!!

I'm being facetious of course.

A social worker can only be sacked for gross misconduct. The disciplinary procedures require that a social worker has to be issued with written warnings and the union rep would be involved, and there would be have to be evidence that the sw was guilty of gross professional misconduct. I only recall one such case and that was a male sw who had an affair with a service user with mental health problems and he refused to stop the affair which was very damaging to the service user. He was issued with so many verbal and written warnings and then the service user became pregnant and claimed the child was his, which he denied and there were all sorts of repercussions and he was finally sacked.

NanaNina · 08/12/2013 16:02

Woops sorry I duplicated my post. Mignonette I absolutely agree with you. It is indeed shocking that JH shares a "platform" with the reprehensible Ian Josephs, and that he is an elected MP makes it beyond shocking.

Incidentally I once asked JH on another thread if he has ever seen an abused/neglected child and as usual he slithered around the question and said words to the effect "I meet all sorts of people in the course of my duties as an MP" Now WHY did I think that meant he had never seen an abused or neglected or frightened child. But then he cares not one jot for these children - his only concern is for the parents as I think he has demonstrated time and time again on this thread and other threads.

Juliet123456 · 08/12/2013 16:23

Telegraph:

Judge must unravel saga of baby snatched from womb

"When last week I broke the story of the Italian mother whose baby was forcibly removed from her womb and taken into care by Essex social workers, I had no idea what a storm this would unleash. Not only did the story make front-page news for four days running here in Britain, along with endless discussion on the radio and legal blogs, but it was reported in at least 41 countries across the world.

Two responses were particularly significant. The first was that Lord Justice Munby, who, since stepping up to become the head of our family courts, has robustly campaigned for our much-criticised child protection system to be opened up to “the glare of publicity”, now wishes to take over the case himself and to ask the social workers to explain their actions. The second was the publication not only of the judgment by Mr Justice Mostyn (pictured), who gave the original secret order for the baby to be removed in the Court of Protection, but also, very revealingly, a full transcript of the proceedings. It is this, above all, that has helped enormously to clarify understanding of this murky story, and makes it even more disturbing than it previously appeared.

On August 23 2012, when Alessandra Pacchieri had already been detained for five weeks in the psychiatric wing of an Essex hospital under the Mental Health Act, pleading to be allowed to return home to her family in Italy, Mostyn heard an application from the MidEssex Health Trust that the mother should be operated on next day to remove her baby, if necessary with use of force. Because the mother was deemed not to have the “mental capacity” to instruct her own lawyer, she was represented on behalf of the Official Solicitor by David Lock QC, who never met her.

The main evidence against the mother was two reports from a psychiatrist, Dr Rupesh Adimulam, who had diagnosed her as “psychotic” and “schizophrenic”, although her “bipolar” condition resulted from a chemical imbalance that had previously been corrected by medication. She had stopped taking that because she was advised that it was dangerous to unborn babies. An obstetrician’s report also said that a caesarean section was advisable because, with a natural birth as the mother wanted, there was a “1 per cent risk of uterine rupture”.

But Lock then raised a “multi-agency report” recommending that the mother should be given “a fair chance” of being treated for her condition in a mother-and-baby unit, allowing her child to stay with her. This point was not even considered by the court. Mostyn simply went on to suggest that, as soon as the baby was born, Essex social services should apply for an interim order to take the child into care, insisting that the mother “should not know about this order before she is taken and goes into hospital”. An order meeting Mostyn’s requirements, including use of force and withholding from the mother that Essex was to apply for a care order, was drafted by the health trust barrister and signed by Mostyn.

As we know from the mother, all went according to plan. Next day she was forcibly sedated, the operation took place and she woke up to find her baby gone, with her room “full of hospital staff and social workers”. She was briefly allowed to see and breastfeed her new daughter, but was forbidden to do this again (despite Munby’s ruling in an earlier case that to deny a mother the right to breastfeed her newborn baby is in breach of “the imperative demands of the European Convention on Human Rights”).

Ms Pacchieri says that her psychiatrist wanted her to be sent with her child to the mother-and-baby unit. But now the social workers had their care order, this gave them full control over what happened next. After three days the baby vanished from the hospital to be put into foster care. Weeks later, Alessandra was escorted by two hospital managers back to Italy, where her father owns a restaurant near Siena. After three weeks being treated in an Italian hospital, she was so fully restored to health that, when in February she returned to Britain to plead for her child not to be adopted, Judge Newton, who had seen her in October, said that she presented herself so impressively that she seemed almost a different person. But, because he could not rule out her failing to take her medication in the future, her child must be placed for adoption.

Such is the extraordinarily tangled saga which Lord Justice Munby has now set himself to unravel. We must hope that he studies Mostyn’s judgment and the events which followed very carefully indeed."

OP posts:
Juliet123456 · 08/12/2013 16:25

Can I just say I regard the vitriol against JH as amazingly unusual on mumsnet and wrong? It says more about those posting than the comments posted do.

Everyone agrees the system is not perfect and could be improved.There are few enough MPs and journalists around prepared to lobby for such change and most of those in the family courts system are very short of funds and powerless. They need many many more advocates for them than they currently have.

OP posts:
HoleySocksBatman · 08/12/2013 16:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Maryz · 08/12/2013 16:42

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Lilka · 08/12/2013 16:42

I haven't posted anything vitriolic against John Hemming on this thread

I have posted several responses to you Juliet and also to the newspaper articles including to say that yes, we are on the same side, and also disucssing some of the other issues here, but you haven't replied to them. I would like to discuss some of issues of this case actually, leaving JH completely to one side

Maryz · 08/12/2013 16:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

johnhemming · 08/12/2013 16:57

Now WHY did I think that meant he had never seen an abused or
neglected or frightened child.
Over the last week I have reported to the authorities the failure of the authorities to take action relating to a child being sexually abused.

I have made it clear on one of the threads relating to the italian case that people should report criminal offences to the police. That obviously includes sexual abuse. It really shouldn't require repeating.

There are people who post in these threads who pay no attention to the answers that I give and additionally misrepresent those answers.

That, however, is much like Prime Ministers Question time so I am used to it. I don't particularly think it helps, however.

Maryz · 08/12/2013 17:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Lilka · 08/12/2013 17:12

This is just going to go round in circles. But on the off chance anyone wants to discuss anything?

There was a brief discussion on the last thread about how the care system might be improved, and that was very interesting

Several new issues have been raised on this thread, so I'll pick two of them and pose a couple of questions and discussion points, on the chance anyone wants to talk about it, because I genuinely do

The first is the issue of contact in care - Juliet said she believes parents and older children should be able to have more contact in care via perhaps social networking or Skype etc. I responded with my own opinion which is that contact is good in some cases but very destabilising and harmful in others even if the child wants it.

So I want to ask all the posters, and discuss - what is your opinion about contact between children in foster care and their parents, whether it's traditional visits or social networking? How can we safeguard children who will continue to be abused by their parents using social networking, or for whom this kind of contact will cause a lot of disruption and problems? Indeed, how do you sort out which children lots of contact would be beneficial for, and which it would be harmful for?

I also want to ask the question to anyone in the know, how is this handled right now?

The second issue is that if Italian adoption law, I want to ask anyone 'in the know' what exactly the law is in Italy regarding adoption. I also want to ask what kind of split between foster care and institution care there is for those taken away from their families?

Spero · 08/12/2013 17:16

The fact that the op just doesn't understand the level of vitriol against JH is surprising.

The reasons for this have been set out clearly over three threads now.

She may take issue with the tone of the language used, but I struggle to see how anyone who has read about his activities and seen how he has conducted himself on these threads! - could doubt that the substance of the concerns was anything other than rational and real.

But as I have said before, the purpose of these threads is not to convince anyone posting to change their minds, as that will clearly never happen.

Sorry, dived into thread and not read it all, I assume that JH has yet to provide any of his famous stats or answer any questions at all.

johnhemming · 08/12/2013 17:17

I do not agree with everything Ian Josephs, Christopher Booker, Camilla Cavendish, Sue Reid, Uncle Tom Cobbley and all says.

I am responsible for what it says on my website, but not what other people say. Final comment on this.

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