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Italian adoption case III

999 replies

Juliet123456 · 07/12/2013 09:29

The last thread says all I need to know about those in the system. It also the most legally dangerous thread I have ever seen on mumsnet. I hope someone has been through the posts for libel risk. It also entirely one sided and biased and makes me laugh.

The defensiveness of those involved in this area will hopefully disappear once we have the openness that JH and indeed many others are seeking and obtaining as the judges increasingly accept that it helps everyone to understand what are very difficult decisions - parents, children and lawyers and social workers and expert witnesses in this field.

It will continue to be important always to get to the facts and where possible publish the facts. I continue to believe that almost any of us could have our children removed if the state set its mind to that. If publishing more decisions and giving rights to parents and those involved and the children to write what they like on twitter, facebook and the like and to let parents and children even when separated communicate and talk about any issues they choose will help then let us hope the law continues down that course.

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nennypops · 08/12/2013 00:27

wetaugust, I haven't called anyone a cunt, and you don't help yourself by descending into further abuse. Try reading the MN rules, why don't you. I must say, when people resort to so much personal abuse against other posters, they simply demonstrate that they can't think of a valid argument.

Spero · 08/12/2013 00:30

I am not asking anyone to call anyone a cunt. What an absurd suggestion.

I am asking if you agree that it is seriously wrong to advise woman not to report the sexual abuse of their own children.

And whether you think it is alarming that an elected member of parliament associates so closely with someone who does and refuses to explicitly dissociate himself.

This is very far from a sterile debate and your attempts to denigrate the points others are making is a shame because it detracts mightily from other sensible things you have said.

wetaugust · 08/12/2013 00:41

I believe in free speech and freedom of association.

I may not like what is said or written, but as long as it's legal, I defend their right to say whatever they want to.

'night cunts.

Devora · 08/12/2013 00:43

Interesting that JH is representing this conversation as him versus a cabal of 'awful', 'dreadful' and 'inane' family lawyers and social workers. Probably the largest single interest category here is adopters, and the background here is that JH first entered MN through a number of threads on the adoption board, where he goaded and harassed us even though we asked him to stay away.

Now, I'm not presenting adoptive parents as saintly martyrs, but we are the people most intimately involved with the children who have undergone the traumas of neglect, abuse, separation from their birth families and adoption into new families. Some seem to suspect that makes us some kind of agents of the system. But if you read threads on that board, you'll see a lot of empathy for birth parents and a lot of understanding about the weaknesses of the current system.

Many of us have very mixed experiences of social workers (I've had one who was completely wonderful, another so dangerously stupid that I shudder for any birth family that has to deal with her). Indeed, many of us are fighting the exact same battles with ss (for proper assessment and support) that birth families will have fought.

Difference is that we don't see a conspiracy, we see a system that is chronically underfunded, unsupported and coming apart at the seams. And that of course makes it easier for bad practice to flourish, but alleging conspiracies and encouraging people to see social services as evil really doesn't help us to convince the general public of the need to fund social services (or any kind of welfare provision) more generously.

JH has shown absolutely no interest in consulting with us or learning from us: he has consistently belittled and goaded us, and that partly explains the strength of feeling on this thread. Also, when posters like Juliet say that children are better off with their birth families than adopted, and JH says adoption is not a panacea, it raises the blood pressure somewhat. If only you could meet my child, learn her story, hear what happened to her siblings who were not taken into care early enough, and then tell me she would have been better off left where she was. Of course adoption is not a panacea: but it is the least-worst option, and it gives her a chance. Fuck, it gives her a chance to finish primary school without having experienced homelessness, malnutrition, sexual abuse or getting battered. It gives me the red mist to have that so loftily dismissed.

But reading these threads is beginning to feel like watching a slow motion car crash. Or reading a Liz Jones column. Torn between fury that we are paying this man's salary, and almost concern for him as he crashes on. It's not going to end prettily, is it?

Spero · 08/12/2013 00:47

Wetaugust. You write well. You appear to be educated and intelligent.

So I will try one last time.

I am not asking you to say IJ should not be permitted to express his views.

I am asking if you agree with them and whether or not you are concerned by the refusal of JH to disassociate himself from them.

Spero · 08/12/2013 00:51

Devora, just let it end that's all I hope for.

Let him spend his own money on his campaigning, let vulnerable people not be mislead by the veneer of respectability his profession gives him.

As he has been allowed to act in this way unchecked for so long I would wonder who or what is protecting him ... But then I worry I would be reaching for my tin foil hat.

Like I said to maryz last night, you adopters are magnificent. I am so sorry you have to put up with the misguided and often hateful behaviours of some.

nennypops · 08/12/2013 00:58

Well, well. Ms Pacchieri's father is now reported as saying that he doesn't think the baby should be returned to his daughter. Apparently he considers she would be a danger to the baby because of her manic delusions.

Notice I'm being careful how I relay this in view of the press's poor track record to date in relation to the facts of this case.

NanaNina · 08/12/2013 01:02

Do forgive me folks for coming on here with an inane rant (as described by JH in my response to his muddled attempt at understanding and relaying certain issues in the child care legislation.

Allow me JH to rant a little more.

Incidentally the legislation to which you refer is The Children Act 1989, not children's act - a common mistake made by the tabloid press and MPs who don't understand the legislation. You mention S.38 of the Act and claim that an ICO or ISO can be made based on "reasonable grounds" without the need for proven evidence. NOT so.

You see JH you have to read the whole sentence, or even para, rather than just reading the first line in any relevant section. If you care to look again at S.38 you will note that it states:

A court shall not make an ICO or ISO unless it is satisfied that there are reasonable grounds for believing that the circumstances with respect to the child are as mentioned in S.31(2) of the Act. This section of the Act deals with the issue of the evidence in relation to the proof that a child is suffering significant harm or is likely to suffer harm as I relayed in my response to your muddled post about S.38

Quite what point you were trying to make in mentioning S38 of the Children Act I know not, but if it was to demonstrate your knowledge of the legislation I think you failed abysmally.

And for the record yes I believe I am the only Social Worker on the thread and I believe Spero is the only Family Law Barrister, although I believe another lawyer has posted, so don't run away with the idea that there are hordes of crazy social workers and family law barristers on the thread, as this could demonstrate that your thinking is delusional, although most of us are already very well aware of that fact.

And YES wet august - having spent some 30 years as a social worker and middle manager and working alongside some of the most deprived and disadvantaged sections of our society, and witnessing the hopelessness of the lives some people have to live, with the odds stacked against them, I DO object when some idiot like Hemmings who is exploiting people when they are at their most vulnerable. Of course people are going to hope he can intervene to get their children back because he is an MP and of course he can do no such thing. And YES I will object when he tells them not to use their chosen lawyer, but to use one of his volunteers instead, who is not legally qualified and can only attend court as a McKenzie friend, and as such has NO voice unless specifically asked a question by the Judge.

There now that IS a rant JH............

NanaNina · 08/12/2013 01:05

The grammar in my last para doesn't make sense but I'm angry and tired.........but I will live to fight another day. There's a quote by someone ? about evil persisting and good men doing nothing. Maybe someone knows the quote - I think it's very apt on this thread.

moldingsunbeams · 08/12/2013 01:23

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CarpeVinum · 08/12/2013 01:23

and almost concern for him as he crashes on

In my defence if you had had The Orange One with suspect painted on hair as your prime minister while the world pointed and laughed, you might find yourself a bit light on the "concern for politico" front as well.

Lilka · 08/12/2013 01:44

^I will be honest I have not read the whole thread, my biggest issue with this case is I believe that family traceable or not the child should be given to the Italian authorities to be adopted if that is the outcome as she is Italian with Italian Heritage. Regardless of the background or history.

I cannot imagine if this were reverse the outcry if this had happened in Italy to someone British.

I know she was born here but honestly she should be raised in Italy imho^

There are two problems with that though - the first is that I think in Italy a child cannot be adopted without parental consent, and as the mother will not consent and if the family cannot take custody, this poor baby would be bounced around in Italian foster care for her whole childhood, never knowing a real family. I personally know nothing about the Italian system, but Carpe who has a great deal of knowledge about the Italian system, is pretty clear that it is dire and no one would ever wish it on a child

The British courts will probably not approve of foster care until 18 over adoption

An interesting court judgement I read a while back was about a baby trafficked from an African country to England, and then taken into care when it was realised what had happened. The government of the African country got involved and wished for the babies return - the British courts ruled that it was best for the baby to return if and only if she was adopted. So they told the African country that as long as the baby was adopted very quickly she would come back. BUT if the baby could not be adopted in her home country, then she would stay in England because orphanage care until 18 was not in her best interests when compared with adoption in England. So the African country guarunteed that they would find an adoptive home quickly and that they would not allow the baby to be raised in an orphanage, and so the baby went home to be adopted in her home country.

It's an intersting case because it shows the priorities of the British courts very clearly - adoption is best for a baby if there is no prospect of the child ever returning to birth family, adoption in the childs 'home' country is better than adoption in Britain, but adoption in Britain is preferable to orphange or foster care in the 'home' country

The second problem is that the motehr asked the Italian courts to make an order to return the baby to Italy - the courts refused and decided the baby should stay in England

So Italy themselves don't seem to want this baby anyway

Juliet123456 · 08/12/2013 09:09

I think the children are getting ignored in this debate.

Camilla Cavendish's article from today's papers is below. She has also done sterling work in exposing miscarriages of justice. No one is saying the family court system never works well, just that sometimes it goes wrong and it can be improved. I am sure all the professionals on this thread would agree with me. It is the speed of rushing to adoption which she says is wrong in this case.

Also i don't like children not being able to contact birth parents, chat on skype, whatsapp and facebook to those parents just because they happen to be in foster care sand not even on supervised visits to parents the parents and children be able to talk about any subject they want even if both want to say they think the social workers are rubbish or brilliant. Let those involved have freedom speech too . Let the parents say we are working so hard to get you back we love you. It is the secret state and censorship and petty rules which makes many parents baulk at the system.

"Four years ago I convinced the last government to make a historic change in the law. The secretary of state for justice, Jack Straw, ended decades of secrecy when he agreed to let the media attend hearings in the family courts.

Until then the decisions made by judges to take children into care, or have them adopted, were made with no public scrutiny. Desperate parents were prevented from speaking out, ostensibly to protect the “privacy” of their children, even while those children were being pictured in adoption magazines. In waging my long-running campaign in The Times to expose miscarriages of justice I had to fight law after law protecting overzealous social workers and unaccountable experts.

So you might expect me to be outraged about Alessandra Pacchieri, the 35-year-old Italian whose baby was delivered by caesarean section against her will when she suffered a breakdown on a trip to England. Her Italian lawyer has likened her experience to living in Nazi Germany, a Milanese judge has said the saga resembles a horror film and she herself has spoken movingly about how her body was “invaded”.

To wrest a baby from a woman’s womb is an act of extreme violence by the state. And yet, I fear, this case is not as simple as billed.

The headline “Operate on this mother so that we can take her baby”, in a newspaper last weekend, was deeply misleading. Dissecting the court documents, it is clear the decision to operate was made by a court that acts for adults who have had a mental breakdown, on the advice of doctors who knew that a woman whose first two children had been born by elective caesarean was at risk of uterine rupture if she tried to have the third naturally. The decision to adopt the child was made later by a family court on the recommendation of social workers.

It is not clear that, faced with an unusually difficult challenge, the authorities performed maliciously. The case does, however, raise some very serious issues.

First, about where decisions should be made. When England is facing exponential growth in the number of children in care who have foreign parents, it seems odd that this case is not being heard in Italy.

Second, about adoption. Was it right to decide so quickly that this child should go to English strangers, not to any relative?

And third, about openness. Had the court documents about Pacchieri been published earlier, we might not have had the flood of misinformation that hit the press last week. While some campaigners are using the hysterical headlines as yet further proof that journalists cannot be trusted, they are in fact a strong argument for completing the reforms that Straw began in 2009 — to enable the public to see properly what is being done in our name.

Quite why a pregnant woman with bipolar disorder should have come to England for a two-week training course to be an air hostess, when she had stopped taking the medication that kept her sane, is unclear.

What we do know is that Pacchieri is troubled. She admitted in court to having suffered manic episodes since 2007. She has been sent three times to Italian psychiatric hospitals, once voluntarily and twice under duress.

So, while being sectioned in England under the Mental Health Act must have been deeply traumatic, it was not an outrage. It is a standard necessary response when someone has a mental breakdown and it was something she had already experienced twice back home.

We also know her two elder daughters have been removed from her by Italian authorities and live with her mother. Italian social services records say Pacchieri “had a sincere affection for her daughters and a desire and wish to care for her children, but was not able to do so in a suitable way because of her condition, which interfered with her ability to maintain her own life and therefore those of her children”.

The three children have different fathers: the first two are American; the father of the baby who was born in England is Senegalese.

When she arrived in England last summer Pacchieri was four months pregnant. She says she had run short of money while staying at a hotel at Stansted airport and the stress of this brought on panic attacks so severe that she called the police. They took her to the Princess Alexandra Hospital in Harlow, Essex, where, she claims, she was kept waiting for 10 hours.

“I really lost my cool,” she told Sue Reid of the Daily Mail. “They would not let me see a doctor and they would not let me go either.” Eventually she was taken to see two male psychiatrists who said they were going to section her under the Mental Health Act.

Marjorie Wallace, chief executive of the mental health charity Sane, says this is standard procedure. The Mental Health Act “would have been used in order for her to get medical treatment. People become paranoid: some even deny they’re pregnant. We can’t say how severe her condition was at that point.”

Pacchieri underwent the caesarean section after several months in psychiatric care. “I begged them not to do the caesarean,” she told the Daily Mail. “The due date was four days later and there was no reason for me to have such an invasive operation with anaesthetic. I wanted a natural birth.”

This testimony is surprising, given that Pacchieri had already had two elective caesareans in Italy. Doctors might well have believed she would have chosen a caesarean had she been in her right mind. And there would have been genuine risks had she attempted a natural birth: I know this because I have had three caesareans myself.

The decision to operate was made at the request of the National Health Service by the Court of Protection, which acts for adults deemed to be mentally incapable. The transcript of the court hearing in August last year shows that Mr Justice Mostyn had ruled that the medical evidence was “clear”. It also says that Pacchieri was displaying “delusional beliefs”. Campaigners are angry that she was not consulted; but she may not have been in a position to make a decision.

“The caesarean could have been essential,” says Wallace, who adds that she has heard of a caesarean being done in similar circumstances once before.

The bigger question, it seems to me, is why the baby was so quickly put up for adoption. It seems unlikely that the authorities could at first have had all the information they needed to judge what was right for the child. And even if adoption is the right answer, an Italian child should surely be adopted in Italy.

Wallace believes the decision to remove the baby permanently was “unacceptable. Normally you’d expect them to have waited for her [Pacchieri] to resume her medication, regained insight and capacity, before any decision was made. What I think was unforgivable was relying on evidence from unnamed and unaccountable experts, people who didn’t know her, did not know what she was like before she was acutely ill and who, as far as we know, didn’t have access to her notes.”

Bipolar disorder, Wallace says, is a fluctuating condition that affects one in 100 people: “No two psychiatrists will be able to predict how soon someone with bipolar might recover or how severe a lapse will be.”

She adds: “There are many thousands of mothers with the condition who may have found pregnancy and childbirth challenging and are at more risk of postnatal depression. But they are managing the condition and their children.”

Given Pacchieri’s history, it seems unlikely that she was going to be one of those mothers. That is broadly what Judge Newton had concluded in February when he decided that the adoption should go ahead.

Under section 31 of the Children’s Act, a child can be removed only if it is thought to be at risk of “significant harm”. The court found this to be the case “because of the mother’s very severe ill health at that time”. It is hard to disagree.

It is not unheard of for children in this country to be taken from their mother in the hospital ward shortly after giving birth. This immensely traumatic experience is usually visited on mothers who have already had older children removed. Some mothers are drug addicts, some have been in care themselves. But right or wrong, most have been known to the authorities for years. Pacchieri was not.

It is one thing to take a child to safety while her mother cannot care for it. It is another to decide to have that child permanently adopted.

Pacchieri has been quoted as saying that the British authorities “planned to adopt my daughter from the very beginning”. The transcripts show that social services applied to take the baby into foster care after it was born. But adoption was clearly also considered.

Did Essex county council do enough to contact the Italian authorities and relatives? The council claims “social workers liaised extensively with the extended family before and after the birth of the baby to establish if anyone could care for the child”.

The father did not attend the adoption hearing in February and was not represented. Pacchieri has told the press, however, that other relatives have offered to help bring up the child.

Who is right? Andy Elvin is chief executive of Children and Families across Borders (CFAB), a charity that advises courts and councils on international child protection cases. Although CFAB has not acted in Pacchieri’s case, he knows about it.

“My understanding is that the local authority has been round the mother’s family extensively,” he says. “It would be exceptionally poor practice if they hadn’t given the grandmother first refusal in this case. But I don’t think anyone has put themselves forward.

“You often end up placing three or four kids with a grandparent, but it can get to the point where the relationship with their own child becomes very strained. This woman [Pacchieri] could have more [children]. It’s possible that the grandmother has just said ‘no more’.”

British law states that the wider family should adopt wherever possible. Yet Elvin says the UK has been historically bad at placing children back in their home countries.

“Most countries just say ‘they’re the grandparents, why wouldn’t you [give them the child]?’ The standard of evidence required in the UK is higher. And this can be multiplied by attitudes towards the country from which they come.”

This reluctance to trust relatives may explain why the number of children in care in England with family overseas is growing exponentially, at a rate of 10-15% a year. Individual local authorities do not collect the figures but the overall numbers could be considerable.

International cases are putting a huge strain on courts and social workers. In 2008 CFAB dealt with four cases involving Polish children. Last year it handled 120 cases from Poland alone. That should surely be an argument for the English authorities to transfer cases back to the home countries wherever possible.

Last week Pacchieri claimed that the American father of her eldest daughter had asked that the baby be sent to Los Angeles to live with his sister, who is already a mother. She also claimed that Essex county council had ruled this out because the American sister has no blood tie to the baby.

While it is not yet possible to corroborate this claim, I have certainly heard of similar situations. If it is true then the authorities have in effect chosen to place the child with English strangers rather than an American stranger who has a distant bond with the family.

Another big question is whether the authorities were too hasty to return the mother to Italy. The NHS seems to have discharged her because it needed her bed. But this has enormously diminished her chances of getting her baby back.

Pacchieri says she has seen the child only 10 times in 15 months. Whether this was accidental or not, I have certainly come across cases of social workers who reduce contact between mother and baby in order to bolster the case for adoption on the grounds that mother and child have not bonded.

Newton, who ruled that the baby should be adopted, also criticised doctors for the “undue haste” with which Pacchieri was “escorted from the UK . . . simply because she wished to go back to Italy”.

It is also not clear why the case is being conducted in England at all, given that everyone involved is Italian. Under a byzantine pan-European arrangement called Brussels II, family law proceedings can be transferred between countries. It is possible that the Italian courts do not want the case, given there was no existing case concerning the baby. But it would be interesting to know whether any attempt has been made to transfer proceedings to Italy — and if not, why not.

Pacchieri now has a legal team of lawyers from three countries, including the highly experienced UK solicitor Brendan Fleming. “If there were concerns about the care of this child by an Italian mother,” Fleming has said, “the better plan would have been for the authorities here to have notified social services in Italy and for the child to have been taken back there.” But for that to happen the Italians would have to co-operate. THE new orthodoxy is that this is not enough: that social workers are leaving hundreds of children in danger of neglect and abuse. But it is also true to say that mistakes are made in both directions.

Some staff are hoodwinked by truly evil parents, such as the mother who starved little Daniel Pelka, who bore clear physical signs of abuse. Other staff pursue parents who are innocent, some of whose cases are overturned on appeal.

The majority of cases turn on whether the child has suffered “emotional abuse”, or neglect, not on physical or sexual abuse. Emotional abuse is not visible, like a broken bone or a cigarette burn. It is harder to prove and therefore to disprove.

The real problem is the system remains too opaque for us to judge whether the right decisions are being taken in our name. I am proud of Straw’s 2009 legislation. But with the 2010 election he did not manage to see through all the changes he had hoped to make. For this reason journalists are still too often in the dark about what can be printed.

The issue is not anonymity: all respectable media outlets are in favour of keeping children’s names out of the press. The issue is that there is no right to see the evidence on which judges base their judgments — in particular, the reports given by psychiatrists and psychologists — the professionals who are determining someone’s fate.

The argument given is that families want privacy. But parents such as Pacchieri want to shout their case from the rooftops. Why not? Secrecy in the main serves to protect professionals from scrutiny.

John Hemming, the Liberal Democrat MP for Birmingham Yardley who chairs the Justice for Families campaign, says Pacchieri’s case shows that we need “greater public scrutiny and more independent evidence”.

The good news is that Sir James Munby, president of the High Court’s family division, has ruled that any future proceedings in Pacchieri’s case must be heard by him.

Munby has argued eloquently in the past that the only way to build public confidence in the family courts and the Court of Protection is to expose them to what he calls “the glare of publicity”. He does not believe the names of judges, social workers or councils should be kept secret. He appreciates that while family courts cannot jail people, the decisions they make to tear families apart are just as grave.

At the centre of this case is a 15-month-old girl who hardly knows her own mother. It is her future that is most important.

One of the many poignant parts of this tragedy was Newton’s description, in court in February, of Pacchieri’s feeling “in a rather perverse and tragically sad way that her daughter had saved her. It had finally brought her to the realisation of accepting that she is bipolar and that it is necessary for her to take and maintain her medication.”

When the judge ruled for adoption it was in a regretful, not malicious, tone. He took the unusual step of stating that he wanted the child to know, when she grows up, that her mother had not abandoned her: “I hope that she will appreciate that her mother loved her and wished for her to return to live with her and to bring her up.”

This is not a case in which there can be a truly happy ending. But with Munby in charge it could perhaps herald a new era of openness and public understanding of what are, in reality, fraught and complex decisions.

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Spero · 08/12/2013 09:25

Yes, a very good article. This is the kind of balance and appreciation of nuance we so desperately need.

May I however point out again that the 'rush to adoption' is a government policy. Care proceedings must now be completed in 26 weeks as a statutory maximum, on the grounds that the previous system was delaying decisions by up to a year which was not in the child's best interests.

This is I think the heart of the debate. For this mother, who so desperately wanted to prove she could care, the further year of assessment she was requesting would have flown by very quickly and represented a small percentage of her life.

For her daughter, another year in foster care would have represented nearly half her life. It would have been very difficult then to remove this child from primary carers to whom she had securely attached. There would have to be a great amount of confidence the mother would not relapse.

And in the circumstances of this case, given her many repeated and lengthy lapses into extreme ill health, that confidence wasn't there.

Very sad. But not a situation arising out of malice and design by the authorities.

I agree the judgments should have been released at the time: these were clearly issues of the utmost seriousness.

That may have prevented JH and others riding on their bandwagon of the corrupt system.

But as they are so clearly impervious to logic and reason, I doubt it.

nennypops · 08/12/2013 09:32

Interesting article, but there are some quite serious flaws in her research. She assumes that, if the baby had been returned to Italy, the baby would have been adopted. However, we have heard that she almost certainly wouldn't have been - she would have been in foster care or an orphanage. She says it would be interesting to know whether there was any application to have the case heard in Italy, but we know that the mother did apply for that and the Italian courts refused. And she suggests that it would have been better for the baby to go to an American stranger who has a distant bond with the family, but that leaves out of account the fact that the US would have had to agree which is not necessarily likely given that she is not a blood relative. Also it would have been much more difficult for the child to have any sort of contact with her wider family in Italy. According to the grandfather, the oldest child was actually adopted by her American aunt, but the mother applied for her to come back only for her to be fostered by her grandmother.

It would be interesting to see what conclusions Ms Cavendish would have drawn had she ascertained the full facts.

johnhemming · 08/12/2013 09:32

A system where social workers are fired for recommending that a family are reunited is a corrupt system. The pressure on a practitioner to lie in court is in fact a criminal offence.

As I see it (and as the italian courts see it) the proposal to separate the baby from her entire family is against all accepted norms. (I am getting the reasoning translated). Ignoring the option of simply placing the child with the mother (which would not be practical today anyway) there is the paternal grandmother and the relative in America who both have been discounted by the system. Placing the child in the family means that the child retains contact with the child's wider family.

The approach adopted in England and Wales essentially ignores the value of family links and assumes that they can be re-created merely at the stroke of a pen. Many adoptive parents have contacted me and also adult adoptees to oppose the obsession with adoption.

Juliet123456 · 08/12/2013 09:36

Yes, I do read about a lot of cases where there are grandparents happy to help and an absent father whom no one has contacted and might want to help and uncles and aunts and yet there seems to be a rush to adoption.

If that is untrue then those in the system should be encouraging the publication of judgments (and I am quite hopeful - more judgments are being published - it helps) to show it is not so.

I think we are all on the same side on this thread and I have no interest other than being a lawyer in a totally unrelated area and mother but I do think some reforms can be made and hopefully they will be. Journalist like Camilla Cavendish do a good job. I am conflicted by the adoption issue though - this Government does not want children in care too long because as we all know constant rebonding with different people is never good for young children. However long term fostering (which presumably is much much more expensive as foster carers are paid and those adopting are not) may well be a better answer.

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Maryz · 08/12/2013 10:00

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Maryz · 08/12/2013 10:01

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Maryz · 08/12/2013 10:05

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Spero · 08/12/2013 10:10

Absent clear documentary proof a social worker was sacked for recommending reunification I afraid I just don't believe it.

The vast majority of cases I so involve detailed assessment of wider family members.

Sadly for some, their wider family is the reason they are so screwed up today.

Maryz · 08/12/2013 10:18

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nennypops · 08/12/2013 10:28

JH refers to the case where a social worker was allegedly sacked for recommending that a child stay with the birth family as if this were a killer point.

However, consider the scenario of a child who is blatantly being neglected and battered by her parents. A social worker insists that the child should stay with them and refuses to support placing her with foster parents. One day the child is found in a coma having had her head kicked in by one of the parents. Wouldn't the likes of the Mail be baying for the SW to be sacked?

DrankSangriaInThePark · 08/12/2013 10:43

Mr Hemming, you say you are having the reasoning of the Italian court decision translated. Is there a finding already published?

Because if there is already a document in the public domain in Italian, I would also like to read it. In its original Italian format, rather than having been translated. Because the article in La Repubblica that you linked to last night, whilst not mis-translating the Judge's published findings, certainly put its own slant onto it.

Could you link to any Italian language document if there is one please?

DrankSangriaInThePark · 08/12/2013 10:43

Apologies if there is already a link to an Italian document on these threads. Cba to go back through and look.