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Italian adoption case III

999 replies

Juliet123456 · 07/12/2013 09:29

The last thread says all I need to know about those in the system. It also the most legally dangerous thread I have ever seen on mumsnet. I hope someone has been through the posts for libel risk. It also entirely one sided and biased and makes me laugh.

The defensiveness of those involved in this area will hopefully disappear once we have the openness that JH and indeed many others are seeking and obtaining as the judges increasingly accept that it helps everyone to understand what are very difficult decisions - parents, children and lawyers and social workers and expert witnesses in this field.

It will continue to be important always to get to the facts and where possible publish the facts. I continue to believe that almost any of us could have our children removed if the state set its mind to that. If publishing more decisions and giving rights to parents and those involved and the children to write what they like on twitter, facebook and the like and to let parents and children even when separated communicate and talk about any issues they choose will help then let us hope the law continues down that course.

OP posts:
Spero · 08/12/2013 17:20

Sorry Lilka, you wanted a sensible discussion and I am not helping.

With regard to post placement contact the research shows that - surprise surprise - if contact is supported it can be positive for both birth and adoptive/foster placements.

But everyone needs help to deal with difficult emotions, possible undermining of placements or further emotional harm being done to children.

So again, it does come back to resources. As a society we need to think really long and hard about what we are prepared to do and now much we are prepared to spend. At the moment interventions seem piecemeal and inconsistent.

I agree there needs to be more positive consideration of post adoptive direct contact - when handled well it can increase the feeling of security for adoptive parents.

Spero · 08/12/2013 17:21

JH do you agree that if a parent thinks his or her child is at risk of being sexually abused, or has been sexually abused, that parent should ask for help from either police or social services?

nennypops · 08/12/2013 17:22

I really do want to know whether John Hemming agrees or disagrees with each item of advice from IJ's website and quoted by Maryz at 11.18 on 7th December, on page 1 of this thread. He claims to have answered before, but we have established that he hasn't, or if he has, it's not available. It would be so easy to do, go on, Mr Hemming.

Spero · 08/12/2013 17:25

Ooo! Sorry, I really should read properly before diving back in. I see I have been emailed 'page 7' of a document that 'proves' JH's case.

My email address indeed remains unchanged since I have it to him so he could sue me last year so I will check it once I am back from the cinema - leaving in five mins I am afraid.

But could I respectfully ask that the entirety of the judgment be emailed? I am sure JH twill agree that it is difficult to judge a situation on one page alone. It might make one wonder what the other pages say that he hasn't sent...

Lilka · 08/12/2013 17:32

But everyone needs help to deal with difficult emotions, possible undermining of placements or further emotional harm being done to children

So again, it does come back to resources. As a society we need to think really long and hard about what we are prepared to do and now much we are prepared to spend. At the moment interventions seem piecemeal and inconsistent

I couldn't agree more with this

Resources and support is very inconsistent and this is definitely a place where the system could be improved. Of course that needs money and funding, not cuts

Post adoption or post LTFC counselling for birth parents, if they want it, needs to be there. Have you read the posts and threads by StupidMistakes ? For a birth mum's perspective on post adoption support I recommend reading

I also agree that post adoption or post LTFC contact is most helpful to the child when the birth parents are being supportive of the child, and that includes being supportive of the placement/adoption. But that's very tough an ask of birth parents, extremely difficult for them to do, which is where good support can come in

I know a lot about how contact is handled in adoption of course, but little about within the care system, take for instance a 12/13 year old who has significant difficulties and is in a care home. How is contact handled then?

CarpeVinum · 08/12/2013 17:32

Can I just say I regard the vitriol against JH as amazingly unusual on mumsnet and wrong?

Can I just say if there had been a more muted response to an actual, live British MP given the circs, I would have been tipped over the edge and applied for Italian citzenship. As it is I am still sticking to hanging on to see if Britian leaves the EU and forces my hand.

And I'd expect a more robust response on a lightly moderated British forum made up mainly of mothers than I would elsewhere given the details that have emerged.

Personally I am that stuffed with the humble pie my husband is force feeding me post his exposure to JH's own words that if there hadn't been a strong response (also swiftly translated for DH's benefit) I might have actually exploded due to HumblePieGate 2.0

I am struggling as to why anybody would not want crystal clear clarity as per his agreement, or lack thereof, with certain views of IJ. I appreciate that in any issue reality dictates the need to make compromises as per the clay like nature of a handy champion's feet. But there is such a thing as a compromise taken too far.

nennypops · 08/12/2013 17:35

It's interesting having a look at the comments underneath today's report in the Mail about the grandfather saying his daughter should not have custody because she would have been a danger to the baby. There has been a major shift from the earlier responses which were, in the vast majority of cases, hysterical denunciations of all concerned as Nazis and the like. Now the majority of comments are much more like the majority on this thread - I.e. they accept that there was a good medical reason for the Caesarian and that the grandfather is probably right. The ones still following the Mail/Hemming line are blatantly the ones who haven't read the facts and are totally unaware of the medical reasons for the operation.

I'm amused that people like Booker and Hemming dismiss the uterine rupture risk as "only" 1%. I know someone who had a uterine rupture, she nearly died, her baby did die, and she had to have a hysterectomy. She would give anything to go back and have the chance of an elective Caesarian. And I must say, given the choice of a one in a hundred risk of uterine rupture or a one in 10,000 risk of adverse consequences of an elective Caesarian, I know what I would choose.

Mignonette · 08/12/2013 17:41

Still not a specific answer. We asked you specifically whether you disagreed with the advice to not report child abuse. You have still failed to say on here for the matter of public record whether you disagree with IJ when he advocates NOT reporting child abuse.

I am not visiting your website. You have come onto this thread on this site and should be open and transparent.

How ironic that a person accusing SS and the Family courts system of being veiled at best and collusive at worst is totally unable to be open and transparent himself.

What a hypocritical way to behave. What a deceitful way to behave.

People - trusting a person who cannot answer a straight question with a straight answer is extremely foolish. One wonders what else such a hypocritical and secretive set of behaviours is hiding?

Juliet123456 · 08/12/2013 17:48

This is no way to treat anyone. I'm appalled by fellow posters. Anyway there we are. It just shows why the system needs shaking up.

OP posts:
Mignonette · 08/12/2013 17:55

Please go do an advanced search Juliet. Because if you approve of the pain and trouble he has caused adoptive parents and many other posters on here not withstanding the destructive influence he will continue to be in the future, well......

Mignonette · 08/12/2013 17:57

And i don't work for SS nor the family courts system. I have long been a campaigner for service users in MH and indeed have been a whistle blower who was bullied out of post for exposing an abusive nurse manager.

So DON'T tell me I am part of a corrupt system or 'part' of a problem. I have never been a Gamekeeper.

This man is an apologist for child abuse because he has done nothing to suggest otherwise. I find this sinister in the extreme.

Lilka · 08/12/2013 17:59

There's only one poster here involved in the 'system', so I'm not sure why that indicates anything

Thanks for the comments Spero

Juliet and everyone else, any thoughts on the contact issue?

desertgirl · 08/12/2013 18:04

Juliet, what is it which is appalling you? Most of the debate has been clear, rational, and coherent, and it is evident that there is a lot of common ground between posters on apparently different sides of the fence. Disturbingly, the one* poster who doesn't seem able to be clear, rational or coherent, or to support his claims with evidence, is the one paid by the public to debate on its behalf. I am rather glad I no longer live in the UK. (there may be more than one, I am not reading back all three threads to check, but he is the one that stands out)

CarpeVinum · 08/12/2013 18:05

You'll have to buy your own if you ever decide to tune in to the House of Commons when they "debate". I don't stockpile industrial quantaties.

LakeDistrictBabe · 08/12/2013 18:05

@Juliet123456

I reported this thread and I hope that other sensible people will follow me on this.

I consider your attempt at the upteeempth child-snatching conspiracy theory as utterly disgusting now.

Despite 2300 posts in three different threads, you and your lot (including JH) keeps spreading lies about a case that has nothing to do with what you are depicting, from the start until now.
You don't even take into account that a minor and a mental health patient are part of it! Have you any idea of how many pregnant women are you scaring off with all your scaremongering against social services? You are a danger to all the British nation, FGS!

There is no Italian adoption, nobody ever said there will be one, baby P's mum wants her child back. So even the title of this thread is completely misleading!

Mignonette · 08/12/2013 18:07

^^^

Bravo Lake

Maryz · 08/12/2013 18:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CarpeVinum · 08/12/2013 18:23

Disturbingly, the one poster who doesn't seem able to be clear, rational or coherent, or to support his claims with evidence, is the one paid by the public to debate on its behalf.*

johnhemming · 08/12/2013 18:31

Maryz: He also said "On the Caesarean judgment where is the voice of the protected person being heard. What is the additional risk either to baby or mother of VBAC? What are the grounds for overriding a decision made before she lost capacity (if indeed she did lose capacity). Where is the capacity test." This was subsequently explained by court reports, which he allegedly had access to, but conveniently ignored. The mother did have representation, and the grounds for the decision were valid.

I also link to this:
www.birthrights.org.uk/2013/12/views-on-the-forced-cesarean-judgment/

and this
mentalhealthandcapacitylaw.wordpress.com/2013/12/04/a-post-which-is-about-caesarean-without-consent/

The published judgment and hearing refers to a diagnosis of schizophrenia, but it is now accepted that she is bipolar.

Furthermore the published judgment does not deal with the capacity issue at all. The barrister acting theoretically on her behalf never spoke to her.

The key capacity issue is this.

She made a decision that she wanted VBAC. She made this before she lost capacity. That decision was overridden by the courts.

It is really worth reading the two above linked blogs before commenting further on this issue.

I also quoted from AIMS on my blog:
The decision to have a Vaginal Birth after Caesarean (VBAC) had been a huge issue in our postbag and maternity care for a long time, and is very much associated with women's desire for control, and also their mental health. Originally the obstetricians policy was "once a caesarean, always a caesarean" and it was women themselves - particularly here, but also in the US - who wanted a chance to have a normal birth and many opted out of hospital care in this country to have home births, with private midwives or even no care, because they were pushed into having CS in hospital. (of course this is not all women's choice - but we support their right to choose whatever it may be) Finally both the ACOG in the States and the RCOG and department of Health here has come out supporting VBACs. One of the reasons for the professional's volte face was the number of women with previous sections who had an embedded placenta as a result of the previous operation, and removal of this (depending on degree of penetration of the uterine wall) can lead to massive, and sometimes fatal, haemorrhage. Having to deal with a few of these in theatre (plus maternal deaths) encouraged them to listen to what women wanted, which proved actually to be safer. Here are RCOG current guidelines www.rcog.org.uk/womens-health/clinical-guidance/birth-after-previous-caesarean-birth-green-top-45
I think it is crucial for her lawyer to get the medical advice that Mostyn had, so that it is possible to see if it was balanced. We do not know if a balanced picture of risks was provided. The risk of what is called "rupture" but in fact is much more likely to be "dehiscence" (gradual and partial separation of the scar, which can be monitored for and a quick CS can then be done) is in fact a very small one, and in most cases of course, risks are explained to women and she chooses between options

Here is the NICE guideline on Caesarean which would have been in place at the time. Please note section on Woman Centred Care

www.nice.org.uk/nicemedia/live/13620/57163/57163.pdf

I am not going to send spero the whole of the defence document. The part sent does not identify the claimant. The whole does. It is a document that is part of the public proceedings, however.

Maryz · 08/12/2013 18:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

johnhemming · 08/12/2013 18:43

It was overridden, presumably because she lost capacity. For good and well-explained medical reasons.

You clearly haven't read the linked blogs.

I will post the key elements here:

These are my criticims, there are doubtless many more that those more expert in mental health and family law can make:

  • AA’s own views and feelings about how she wished to give birth were entirely absent from the court’s discussion during the hearing or in the judgment. There was no reference anywhere in the transcript of the proceedings or the court’s judgment to any conversation with AA about her intentions for the birth, her previous birth experiences or any discussion with her family about how she might wish to give birth. Remarkably, it appears that her treating clinicians had not discussed with her whether she wished to have a vaginal birth or a repeat c-section. The fact she suffered from a mental disorder did not mean that she would not have been able to express her views about how she wished to give birth. This lack of consultation with AA is astounding and reflects very poor practice on the part of both her clinicians and the court. It also supports AA’s account that she woke one morning to be told that she was to be taken to hospital without any prior warning. The profoundly distressing effect of such an experience is reflected in AA’s obvious continuing trauma and anger about the way she was treated. It prompts the feminist in me to ask whether an incapacitated man facing surgery would have been treated in the same way…
  • This lack of consultation had serious implications for the court’s assessment of her mental capacity. A person lacks mental capacity if they are unable to make a decision for themselves because they suffer from a mental impairment (s.2 of the Mental Capacity Act 2005) AND they are unable to understand, retain, use or weigh or communicate their decision even after all necessary practical assistance has been provided to them (s.3 of the Act). AA clearly suffered from a mental impairment sufficient to satisfy s.2 but there is no consideration whatsoever of whether she was able to understand, retain, use, weigh or communicate a decision about her birth choice, apparently because she was not asked about it. The court’s decision (and sadly AA’s own lawyer’s submissions) about her mental capacity were wholly inadequate to the seriousness of the decision that the court was making.
  • The court failed to undertake any real consideration of the risk of scar rupture. Her doctors may have described it as ‘very significant’, but it is incumbent on the court to test that evidence. A 1% risk means that it was 99% likely that her uterus would not rupture. A 1% risk is equivalent to many other obstetric risks that would not be used to justify invasive surgery. The NICE Guidelines, which I suspect were not cited in evidence, state that women who had up to four previous c-sections should be advised that uterine rupture is rare and offered the choice of vaginal birth. The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists recommends a repeat c-section after 3 previous c-sections. If the woman was requesting a vaginal birth (and we do not know what she wanted, because her voice is entirely absent from the evidence), she would have been making a perfectly reasonable choice.
  • The notion that AA might ‘dissemble’ or become ‘uncooperative’ and refuse electronic monitoring during her labour so that the doctors were unable to tell whether she or the baby were becoming unwell reveals the profound lack of confidence that modern obstetrics has in its understanding of women during childbirth. Any woman in labour, regardless of whether they have a mental disorder, may appear to be acting ‘irrationally’ or ‘dissembling’. It is her attendants duty to watch her carefully and look for signs of distress that manifest themselves regardless of or in addition to how the woman might be behaving. But that requires doctors who will sit patiently with a woman during her labour and who do not rely simply on machines to give them an answer.
  • The medical evidence suggested that AA and her baby ought to be placed in a mother and baby unit after the birth. It is unclear from the judgment why this did not happen. The first judgment in the care proceedings has not yet been released, but it ought to reveal the reasons why the baby was removed so soon after birth.

All in all, a depressing case for anyone concerned with modern maternity care and the rights of people with mental illness. The comment by Lucy Series on twitter best sums up my reaction: “If you were trying to convince somebody the Mental Capacity Act was progressive, empowering, person-centred, the caesarean judgment would not help you.”

Elizabeth Prochaska, Birthrights

A post which is about caesarean without consent
December 4, 2013
‘I might, if it is published, deplore Mostyn J’s reasoning about the mother’s best interests or her capacity…’

Showing uncanny prescience Mostyn J’s judgment and the transcript of the case of Re AA have now been published and I deplore them (warning pdf).

I wanted them to be better than this. But the judgment does not really explain how the test of capacity in s. 2 Mental Capacity Act applies to AA and reading the transcript my suspicion is that he has not assessed AA’s capacity properly, and may even have confused it with her best interests.

What did the judge know at the point he made his judgment?

AA was detained in hospital under s.3 of the Mental Health Act. She had a ‘schizophrenic disorder which was psychotic in nature’, and she was experiencing delusions.

She had had two previous births by caesarean section increasing the risk of a uterine rupture in this pregnancy to something close to 1%.

At the time of the hearing she was 39 weeks pregnant and it was proposed that the caesarean be performed the following day.

Her doctors favoured a planned caesarean performed under a general anaesthetic because they feared that if she was allowed to go into labour spontaneously she might lie about the onset of labour and interfere with efforts made to help her. Planned caesarean would allow them total control of the process and thus make the process maximally physically safe.

The finding of lack of capacity

In the judgment Mostyn J. tells us that he finds AA lacks capacity ‘within the meaning of s.2(1) MCA. But s.2(1) MCA only tells us that for a person to lack mental capacity in English law they must have a ‘an impairment of, or a disturbance in the functioning of, the mind or brain.’

AA certainly met this requirement. But the judgment does not tell us why she met the further requirements of being unable to make a decision under s.3 MCA. To be unable to make a decision a person must be unable to understand, retain, use or weigh or communicate their decision even after all necessary practical assistance has been provided to them. The judgment contains no discussion of what efforts have been made to discuss birth planning with AA, nor of whether she understands the consequences of refusing a caesarean section.

This does not mean AA had capacity at the time. Only that the judgment does not communicate that she did not.

The finding that a caesarean was in AA’s best interests

He further fails to apply the best interests test in s.4 correctly. He correctly identifies that the interests he is meant to take into account are primarily those of the mother and not those of the child who is, as yet, unborn. This is clearly a difficult task since in late pregnancy the interests of most women are intimately intertwined with those of their baby. There is a suggestion this was true for AA, because it is recorded in the transcript that she wants to see and hold her baby after it is born. Nevertheless the position in law is that we cannot start from the position of health baby = happy mother and work backwards to establish what the mother’s interests are.

We can however, identify in some cases that the mother’s best interests will prospectively be achieved through a healthy delivery and take that into account when making a best interests assessment. This is true when giving birth to a healthy child will be critical to the mother’s mental health for example. Unfortunately, Mostyn J. places a high value on this point but fails to consider any other evidence concerning the mothers past wishes, feelings, beliefs or values. Nor is any evidence from her family concerning her views on childbirth cited. Of course, this may not have been available, but its absence should have been noted and strongly regretted since it makes the decision reached under s.4 MCA largely artificial.

The actual best interests assessment to be reached here was a subtle one. Vaginal birth after caesarean is a normal practice and the risks of uterine rupture cited in the judgment are those given in standard literature given to women considering this. So if AA was refusing a caesarean this did not by itself indicate anything amiss. Many women with capacity with a history of previous caesareans choose to give birth vaginally every day. The case also reinforces the view that adults lacking capacity are not allowed to make the same risky decisions that are permitted to the rest of society.

As Lucy Series predicted, if AA had been present a better judgment might have been reached. There might have been practical difficulties in securing the physical presence of a woman with serious mental distress, currently detained who was also 39 weeks pregnant at this hearing. But the sheer absence of her voice in the decision being reached about her life is utterly inexcusable. We must do better than this.

Finally, the thing that utterly baffles me about this judgment is Mostyn J’s objection to the placement in a Mother and Baby Unit, which is what her treating clinician had recommended and which would have been by far the best option for her since it would have respected the one wish we know her to have had – to have contact with her baby. I cannot make head nor tail of paragraph 7 of the judgment and can only identify uncharitable (to Mostyn J.) interpretations to place upon it. If anyone could help me out I’d be grateful.

johnhemming · 08/12/2013 18:45

Remember when people go under a general anesthetic they lose capacity. Your reasoning would imply that we then ignore all of their decisions whist they had capacity.

Mignonette · 08/12/2013 18:47

I had VBAC and a ruptured uterus and urinary bladder. I spent days in ITU separated from my newborn after hours of surgery and we both only just survived. I was left unable to have any more children.

It is not a rare risk that causes staff to be over cautious. However the best indication of future risk is past risk and without good access to somebodies ante, intra and post natal records, one needs to be conservative.

The best outcome for any Parent is a live healthy birth and a live healthy Mother. Should the clinical picture change or staff feel they are unable to safely monitor or deliver a VBAC labour then the decision would change.

Typically somebody who has never experienced pregnancy or birth might feel that once one states what one wants in a birth plan or advance directive, this should be sacrosanct. Unfortunately should the medical circumstances change after a person has lost capacity WHICH DOESN'T MEAN THEY ARE STUPID AS THIS MAN HAS EQUATED IT WITH IN THE PAST then the decision to ELSCS will need to be made.

Should an embedded placenta require manual removal during ELSCS then the same drugs used in VB will be adminstered and the placenta removed that way. The placenta will naturally detach from the uterus.

It needs to be noted that should a uterus rupture during labour, the risk factor of an embedded placenta is a moot point because the labouring women will be severely at risk from haemorrhaging to death before she even gets to theatre anyway. So this is irrelevant.

She will not haemorrhage from the removal of the placenta because she won't live long enough for this to even happen. I survived because I was already in theatre being prepped for surgery as I had decelerations. Had I been on the labour ward still I would not be here to write this. They were able to go in and grab.

Oh and re Dehiscence- this is only relevant IF the dehiscence occurs away from the site of the placenta and all other major blood vessels. This is down to the luck. Not judgement. Not monitoring. The 'gradual tearing' can still cause massive post natal recovery problems especially if it extends into the area around the cervix or a woman has scarring from Endometriosis. It can cause nerve damage, problems with urinary bladder capacity and sensitivity. There may be a need for Hysterectomy.

Only a stupid person would risk any of these in a woman so unwell in other ways. Or trivialise them.

desertgirl · 08/12/2013 18:50

John, I have a lot of sympathy for the lady concerned, she has obviously been through a very tough time. However, she was clearly in significant crisis at the time of the birth - whatever the diagnosis. I can understand her not wanting to take medication while pregnant, and I can understand her not wanting to face up to the reality of what is clearly a horrible condition.

But do you really believe that in the sort of crisis she was in, she would have been able to undergo a VBAC, complete with the additional monitoring required? She would have needed to cooperate with those caring for her, which may well have been beyond her at the time. And if something goes wrong during labour, and intervention is required, then what? - she isn't capable of giving consent, because of her mental state at the time; what happens to her interests then?

Why do you think they 'forced' her to have a section, against her interests? Are you still alleging that this was part of a plot to steal her baby?

Maryz · 08/12/2013 18:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.