Why I No Longer Feel Comfortable Wearing a Poppy

[Geckos48]

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/madeleine-fry/poppy-day_b_4169581.html

very eloquently put. Exactly how I feel about the whole debacle.

November 11th should be for those who selflessly gave their lives in the World Wars, not those who chose to fight dubious campaigns abroad.

whether Britain would be 'better' had we been 'freed' seems largely irrelevant to the discussion on how the poppy is worn but...

We DIDNT need to be freed. Because for most of modern history we have had a functioning democracy. It wasn't necessary for Queen Victoria to be overthrown, I don't know if any country would have had the force to do it anyway? (Not a historian).

I'd be interested to know your feelings on Winston Churchill OP. He's a national hero of the time you are quite misty eyed about, but through most of the 30s was seen as a war mongering solder supporter...

And also, your emphasis on buildings and artefacts as the only markers of heritage are deeply unsettling.
I believe the lives of people are more important.
Plymouth and Coventry and Dresden and many many other cities have survived through the spirit of the PEOPLE, not their architecture.

Who are the 'pro-war' posters on here?

Oh for fucks sake, nobody on here is "pro-war".
Goverments are reponsible for sending people to war. That's who your bile should be directed at. Or maybe even the the despots who ravage countries and the citizens who live there.

Our human rights throughout history have been atrocious actually. Our treatment of the Welsh, Scottish and Irish have been abysmal.

So again, if we had of been 'freed' back then, would it have improved our lives?

Would it make a difference to what we have now?

It would make a difference in that much of our culture, libraries, writings, buildings, infrastructure would have been destroyed.

Perhaps you have not been to a war-torn country and perhaps you have not seen what people have to deal with long-term when their infrastructure is destroyed? But its not pretty trust me.

Go on, answer Clam.

Who are the Pro War posters?

Now, please can you answer clam.
And me?

I actually think some people should answer the question I have asked five or six times before expecting me to answer anymore (really obvious) questions.

Again, You cannot be pro-soldiers and anti-war, that is my stance. Making most of you pro-war actually.

I dont think any country needs to be 'freed' by outside military.

I think to say so is incredibly arrogant.

And incredibly pro-war.

France didn't need to be freed by military force?

There are many other examples of that of course.

I did answer that question. I would suggest a spot of reading.

Never before on MN has a thread made me want to throw my iPad out of the window, but this one has.

Gecko, you are spouting so much bs you are tying yourself in knots. I know who you are by the way, you are the poster who said my DH was likely to be a rapist because he is in the RAF!

I shall wear my Poppy to remember ever single person who has died in conflict. To me, it doesn't matter if they signed up voluntarily or were conscripted, they all deserve the same respect.

And, now that I have answered your questions, you can answer mine.

Would Britain be as nice a place if we had been 'freed' or has the battle to gain our freedom, explore humanity and improve ourselves been part of what makes us who we are?

I would say it is the latter.

This all has to be alongside not selling weapons to cunts of course. (thats a biggie)

Said your DH was a rapist because he is in the RAF? Absolute crap! my father was in the RAF!

You are just talking nonsense, I will ignore it.

I have addressed the question you posed. I can't answer it because I cannot know the answer any more than you can.

Please now can you address some of the other points?
Like why are material things so much more than lives?
How do you feel about Churchill?
Why are the lives of WW1&2 soldiers more important than soldiers of more recent wars?
How do you think things will turn out in Syria?

Said your DH was a rapist because he is in the RAF? Absolute crap! my father was in the RAF!

You tarred all military personnel with the same brush as a small number of soldiers who'd committed offences on your last hate filled thread about the services, perhaps you should check what you did actually say.

infrastructure, history, culture and heritage are important TO lives, they are important to a country. How can you not see that?

Someone on here told me it takes 30 years for a country to 'recover' from being 'freed'. Why not wait 30 years and see if they sort themselves out? Why not offer aid and education and see if that helps rather than (bizarrely) sending guns and bombs and soldiers?

I thought Churchill was a bit of a cunt actually.

(as I already stated) the soldiers in the WW's had no internet, not research facilities available to them to show how corrupt and nasty our government is. Soldiers nowadays do. The PEOPLE (not just soldiers) who fought in the second world war did so because it kept up free, the soldiers in the First thought exactly the same, they had no other methods of gaining knowledge.

I think that is worthy of respect.

if a soldier nowadays think they are 'fighting for peace' they are brainwashed and mistaken, there is plenty of information out there to show otherwise. Travel the world a bit, see how we are viewed by the East, its not in a nice way I can assure you, regardless of how many Welsh speaking schools we have build in Iraq, we have destroyed a whole country, the buildings, the culture, the history, the things they were rightly proud of.

I dont know how things will turn out in Syria, or the world as a whole, but I know that our involvement in Libya has not helped anyone, we have just trashed the place, got a cheap price for oil and fucked off.

We are, really quite dreadful people.

No I said that all military are not heroes and that due to the nature of the job its more likely to attract arseholes than some other jobs.

I know what I said, my point of view has not changed.

And i can answer it by the way.

I can say absolutely that Britain is a better country now that it would be as a war-torn country

that our heritage is a great asset to us and our social policy history is a credit to us.

i can absolutely say that being bombed would not improve my life.

its more likely to attract arseholes

A bit like Mumsnet I suppose Geckos48

As I said, only on the internet is someone considered an 'arsehole' for not believing in war.

Fortunately in the rest of life, people are quite easy about pacifists.

It's a tricky one - I no longer wear poppies mostly because of my feelings about recent conflicts - and do totally see the difference between being conscripted into a ww and choosing a career where you are basically saying 'I am willing to take another persons life' it's a job but it is a decision. Many wars are unjust, often innocents die at the hands of soldiers. And soldiers die too and get seriously injured I feel for them ( and particularly their families) but surely knowing you are putting yourself in danger is part of the job description. You kill and maim and the same may happen to you! Ww conscripts had no choice.

You can be pro-solider and anti-war because, as I said upthread and as LtEve explained beautifully, soliders do much more then fight. Security at the Olympics and Wimbledon comes to mind but there are many, many other less publicised examples. The vast majority of soliders I know (mostly Army but some Marines and a few from the Navy and RAF) signed up for these reasons, to protect their country. I see no reason not to support them.

Right then Gecko.

You've asked and answered all your questions to your own satisfaction. Glad you cleared that up for us.