Why I No Longer Feel Comfortable Wearing a Poppy

[Geckos48]

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/madeleine-fry/poppy-day_b_4169581.html

very eloquently put. Exactly how I feel about the whole debacle.

November 11th should be for those who selflessly gave their lives in the World Wars, not those who chose to fight dubious campaigns abroad.

Do fuck off.

You just want another British military bashing thread don't you??

You don't want a discussion, you ignore passionate, articulate posters like LtEveDallas who actually knows what she's talking about .

You rant, you don't discuss.

Yes, you can argue with 'what if's

what if Iraq had been allowed to reach economic stability? Would the human rights of the country been improved? There is vast evidence to suggest that yes it would.

What if we hadn't decided to split Pakistan off from India? Would we find the troubles there that we do or would they be improving like India is?

All you have done is argue 'what ifs' the reason that the forces go into foreign lands is a 'what if they attack us first' 'what if they have nuclear weapons'

you can't have one without the other. Relate it back to Us, because actually, this lands and territories we bomb and destroy are people too and they deserve their countries to be in one piece, just like we do.

You rant, you don't discuss and you don't listen.

There is many examples that terrorism in the world has risen because of our occupation of Afghanistan, not fallen.

I'm just trying to come to terms with your staggering selfishness there OP. You won't support it if the war doesn't directly protect YOU. Sod protecting others then. I suppose by your reasoning we should have let them crack on with ethnic cleansing in the Balkans, not bothered to build or protect schools in Afg or indeed try and secure areas where the locals didn't want to be subjected to Taliban rule.

Fighting directly for your own turf is something we should be grateful to the WW generations for. Equally we should honour those who still sacrificed in recent conflicts where ambiguity and protecting others was the order of the day.

As for your comment equating the AF to terrorists, it is too offensive and the reasoning too ignorant to address further here. Just plain nasty.

I'm trying to discuss the points I have raised, nobody is willing to do that, why?

Why is it so far fetched to ask people to talk about 'what if it were us'

I dont think thats ranting, I've asked a number of questions a number of times and they have been ignored.

War doesn't protect others, economic stability does.

War takes the bottom out of economic stability so it does the very opposite of protecting people.

Its not 'selfishness' to not want folk blown up, its common sense.

Because no one agrees with you.

Have you considered that?

Agrees with what?

I have asked a question? Would it have been better for our country, if when we suffered massive human rights violations that we had been bombed and 'freed' thats not an opinion its a question.

I'm asking your opinion, not giving mine.

You are asking me to not only accept, but also RESPECT a culture and career that supports bombing and occupying other countries because of human rights issues.

I am asking you if you would support a culture that had bombed us when we had human rights issues.

its not a difficult question.

LtAllHallowsEve Thu 31-Oct-13 14:49:03

In Bosnia my job was to protect the Serbs from the Croats from the Muslims and the IFOR and the UNPROFOR and the Aid workers and so on. Everyone was in danger from everyone else. It didn't matter to me who I was protecting, just that I was. I did that in my name, in your name, in the name of every decent person on earth that was against ethnic cleansing and the rape and murder of men, women and children. It didn't bother me who they were.

In Iraq I was there as part of the force that were providing food, medicines, clothing, shelter and safety for the Displaced Persons - those displaced by SH, deserted and captured soldiers, terrorised and damaged families. I was also very proud of being able to help the Red Cross and MSF get to areas they hadn't been able to reach for the previous 10 years.

I lost one friend in Bosnia, four in Iraq and two in Afghanistan. I wear my poppy to remember them, and to donate to the charity that is supporting their families, now and forever.

Because of good people like you Europe is a little bit safer.

I'm ex services and am thankful for YOUR service and the service of your comrades.

I sympathise with Gecko's position, as did other posters earlier on in the thread, so it is not true that no one agrees with her view. And even if she was alone in her view, that doesn't necessarily mean she is wrong - beware of group think.

Gecko, I usually wear a poppy, but I do feel ambivalent about it as I feel uncomfortable about what feels like an increasing acceptance of us continuing to fight wars, when the very idea of the poppy was that by remembering we would make sure it never happened again and bring an end to war. Well, that hasn't worked.

I also dislike 'help for heroes' as I don't think being a soldier automatically makes you a hero, as some of the atrocities committed by serving troops proves. Form me, carers are heroes, people with weapons aren't.

Geckos48

I'm trying to discuss the points I have raised, nobody is willing to do that, why?

Because every time you have raised a point, it has been comprehensively demolished and you have gone off on a tangent. Every. Single. Time.

Why should anyone go to the effort to 'discuss' anything with you? You've no empathy. No understanding. And you lack the capacity to grasp what you're being told.

Why is it so far fetched to ask people to talk about 'what if it were us'

I dont think thats ranting, I've asked a number of questions a number of times and they have been ignored.

Your questions have become vaguer and more puerile, and I'm not alone in tiring of your childish games.

You certainly are not alone,flatpack. I should have stayed with last night's estimation of 'bonkers thread'.

Interesting thread. I am a pacifist and try to incorporate it into my daily life where possible. I wear a white poppy and have done since a very young age. I have campaigned against every war and will continue to do so. I also disagree with this blind faith in the armed forces and how it is frowned upon not to support them. I agree the govt should do more to help service people and not rely on the general public to do so. In my opinion there are plenty of heroes within our communities that deserve our help more.

Add message | Report | Message poster Geckos48 Fri 01-Nov-13 08:51:11
There is many examples that terrorism in the world has risen because of our occupation of Afghanistan, not fallen.

Please prove that statement. You were asked to earlier, but didn't.

My nana gets no help from the appeal...they feel forgotten

If you were telling the truth about your nana earlier in the thread then all she has to do is ask. You can even ask on her behalf. You can even get support as a relative.

the whole thing is a joke, a joke that cost a thousand lives and ruined countries

Except TwitTwoo, an Iraqi citizen, you know, someone who was actually there, was glad of our intervention - I'd take the view of the (wo)man on the ground over yours any day. Your insistence that you are right diminishes her actual experience, rubbishes her feelings and dismisses the human rights atrocities that were going on, causing the deaths of 700,000 Iraqi citizens BEFORE any NATO intervention.

Oh and people that are talking about Help for Heroes - I don't know ONE SINGLE SOLDIER who considers him/herself a hero. It was a tag line initiated by the Bloody Sun newspaper when they needed a new 'pet' and chose the British Military. Many soldiers, myself included, DO NOT support this charity. They do an 'OK' job - but I do not agree with their 'qualifying criteria' and neither do hundreds of other squaddies. I support the RBL through Poppy Day and my monthly subscription, the ABF similarly and pay into the widows and dependants fund - as do many other members of the forces.

I will say that I am uncomfortable with the way the campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan are being portrayed in such an uncritical way here.

Both are hugely controversial. The invasion of Iraq was under false pretences - no WMD were found. While Saddam was detested, most Iraqis did not want a foreign invasion to remove him, supporting opposition movements against him could have been a better stategy.

As for Afghanistan, it remains a failed state, the Taliban have not been defeated and vast chunks of the country remain under the control of other warlords, who are not necessarily anymore pleasant.

None of the above means the army are terrible people, or not worthy of support, but uncritical cheerleading of UK foreign policy is not the best way of doing this.

Aha. You know, I thought the strident tones of this OP sounded familiar!

Is anyone prepared to answer the question of whether Britain would have been better if we had been 'freed' by foreign forces resulting in the loss of our infrastructure and culture?

Anyone?

That, to me, says it all. You are happy to defend the occupation and war waged on other countries, but you know as well as I do that Britain is where it is because WE have made it that way, we have improved our human rights along side our economic stability.

If you are not prepared to bring it home, then you should not be prepared to take it to someone elses.

So much hypocrisy.

That not ONE of the 'pro war' commenters here can acknowledge and discuss that one point is so telling.

I don't see any "Pro war" commenters on this thread.

Hyperbole much?

I think the French are generally grateful for the Allied invasion OP, despite suffering horrendous losses through collateral damage. I'd extrapolate that the same would be true had Britain been invaded.

Again, avoiding the question.

How can you defend folk going into other countries when you cannot say it would have been good for us?

Because it wouldn't be would it? Imagine if we had no cultural buildings? No marks of our history? That is where Iraq is at the moment

That is what we DO to countries, destroy the infrastructure and fuck up the system of government. We have no RIGHT to do that, it does not create anything better. We should leave well enough alone.