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ISRAEL: WHEN WILL THE WEST DO SOMETHING?

589 replies

donnie · 30/06/2006 20:19

Am I alone in feeling outraged that Blair et al have said and done nothing about Israel's incursion into Gaza following the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier?

I have been very outspoken on MN about my opposition to the Israeli Government in the past and make no bones about the fact that I do regard it as verging on being a rogue state. Their sustained oppression of the Palestinians is repulsive to me and I see them as legitimised terrorists.

Opinions please.

OP posts:
monkeytrousers · 15/07/2006 17:00

Just read you post about righteousness Bloss. I agree. Sachs was made to recant I think however and take out the more liberal ideas from his book.

lionheart · 16/07/2006 15:24

It's getting worse.

monkeytrousers · 16/07/2006 22:27

Israel is not interested in politics anymore and the US and UK know this. They are a loose cannon. There is now no difference between the organisations Israel denounce and themselves. It's a free for all.

m1m1rie · 16/07/2006 22:42

Have just read a headline "G8 order Hizbollah to stop". Are they serious? Why didn't they just say "Sit on your hands whilst they blast you all to Kingdom Come" Why are they not allowed to retaliate? How long do they have to tolerate it? Why are you only a terrorist if you are a muslim? Am feeling very aggrieved and reeling at the awful one-sidedness of the situation. Like the spiteful little kid in the playground who knows his big bully brother is right behind him as he picks on all the other kids. So long as big brother is there, nobody stands a chance of successfully defending themselves.

FairyMum · 16/07/2006 23:57

I really cannot see a solution to this crisis/war. It will only escalate, don't you think? What a crazy and depressing world and how laughable is the UN and their useless resolutions.

tortoiseshell · 17/07/2006 12:07

It's so depressing this situation. It reminds me of my children saying 'You started it', 'no you did' 'I had it first'. Israel constantly say they are retaliating for Hezbollah attacks, Hezbollah say they are merely retaliating.

For those people who mentioned the Camp David 'offer' by the Israelis, it was an impossible offer. For starters, the Palestinians weren't given one area of land - they were given pieces, with Israel in between, making it impossible to have a coherent state. The Israelis would still have controlled access between the areas, as it would be across parts of Israel. They also said Israel would retain sovereignty of the ground beneath the Islamic holy building in Jerusalem (have forgotten the name atm).

Isn't part of this mess down to Lawrence of Arabia? I understood that he had promised the land to the Palestinians when the Ottoman Empire broke up. The UN tried to partition it in 1947, which never really happened, and then in 1948 the Jews declared the state of Israel. map here The link has a good history of the situation.

southeastastra · 17/07/2006 12:23

what's going on in the lebanon now?? it's a depressing world - so much violence hiding behind religion.

bloss · 17/07/2006 13:17

Message withdrawn

tortoiseshell · 17/07/2006 13:26

If the Lebanese want Hezbollah out of Lebanon, then surely Israel could work WITH them. They didn't manage to eradicate Hezbollah during the occupation of Lebanon, and the Government of Lebanon is one of the weakest governments in the world, more so now that the infrastructure is so wrecked.

I remember seeing a program where John McCarthy returned to Beirut. He showed what a different place it was from the war-torn place it had been. Such a shame.

peacedove · 17/07/2006 19:12

records of the Palestine-Iraeli conflict:

if the Americans knew

peacedove · 17/07/2006 19:17

an extract:

Three and a half years ago, when the current Palestinian uprising began, I started to look into Israel and Palestine. I had never paid much attention to this issue before and so ? unlike many people ? I knew I was completely uninformed about it. I had no idea that I was pulling a loose piece of thread that would steadily unravel, until nothing would ever be quite as it had been before.

When I listened to news reports on this issue, I noticed that I was hearing a great deal about Israelis and very little about Palestinians. I decided to go to the Internet to see what would turn up, and discovered international reports about Palestinian children being killed daily, often shot in the head, hundreds being injured, eyes being shot out.1 And yet little of all this was appearing in NPR reports, the New York Times, or the San Francisco Chronicle.

There was also little historic background and context in the stories, so this, too, I began to fill in for myself, reading what has turned into a multitude of books on the history and other aspects of the conflict.2 I attended presentations and read international reports.

The more I looked into all this, the more it seemed that I had stumbled onto a cover-up that quite possibly dwarfed anything I had seen before. My former husband had been one of the founders of the Center for Investigative Reporting (CIR), an institution known for its powerful exposés. He and CIR have won numerous well-deserved awards from Project Censored from the very beginning of its creation. Nevertheless, the duration and violence of the injustice I was discovering, and the extent of its omission and misrepresentation ? even in Project Censored itself, seemed unparalleled.

In February and March of 2001 I went to the Palestinian territories as a freelance reporter, traveling alone throughout Gaza and the West Bank. I saw tragedy and devastation far beyond what was being reported in the American media; I saw communities destroyed, ancient orchards razed, croplands plowed under. I saw children who had been shot in the stomach, in the back, in the head. I still see them.

I saw people convulsing and writhing in pain from a mysterious poison gas that had been lobbed at them; they said it felt like there were knives in their stomach.3 I talked to men who had been tortured.4

I watched as a mother wept for her small son, and I took pictures of his spilled blood. I watched a son grieve for his mother, killed on her way home from the market on a day that I was told was the Muslim equivalent of the day before Christmas, or Passover, and I thought of my own son, the same age.

I listened to old people who described the start of this holocaust ? over fifty years ago, at the end of an earlier one. They described what it was like when three-quarters of your entire population is ethnically cleansed from their homes and land, children dying along the roadside while aircraft shell the fleeing families. They told of dozens of massacres of entire villages, and I?ve since read accounts by Israeli soldiers, published in Israeli publications, of how they raped the women, and then killed them, of how they used sticks to crush the skulls of children.5 I discovered the message sent by Menachem Begin, later elected Israeli prime minister, to troops following the massacre of Palestinians in one village, Deir Yassin:

?Accept my congratulations on this splendid act of conquest. Convey my regards to all the commanders and soldiers. We shake your hands. We are all proud of the excellent leadership and the fighting spirit in this great attack...Tell the soldiers: you have made history in Israel with your attack and your conquest. Continue this until victory. As in Deir Yassin, so everywhere, we will attack and smite the enemy. God, God, Thou has chosen us for conquest.? 6

  1. Davar, June 9, 1979: Testimony of an Israeli soldier who participated in the massacre at al Duwayma Village on Oct. 29, 1948: ?[they] killed between 80 to 100 Arabs, women and children. To kill the children they fractured their heads with sticks. There was not one house without corpses. The men and women of the villages were pushed into houses without food or water. Then the saboteurs came to dynamite the houses. One commander ordered a soldier to bring two women into a house he was about to blow up ... Another soldier prided himself upon having raped an Arab woman before shooting her to death. Another Arab woman with her newborn baby was made to clean the place for a couple of days, and then they shot her and the baby. Educated and welll-mannered commanders who were considered ?good guys?... became base murderers, and this not in the storm of battle, but as a method of expulsion and extermination. The fewer the Arabs who remained, the better.? For additional information on Israel?s beginnings: Masalha, Nur, Expulsion of the Palestinians: The Concept of ?Transfer? in Zionist Political Thought, 1882-1948, The Institute for Palestine Studies: Washington D.C., 1992.

  2. Ball, George W. and Douglas B. Ball, The Passionate Attachment: America?s Involvement with Israel, 1947 to the Present, W. W. Norton & Company: New York, 1992, p. 29.

Israel & Palestine - choosing sides

SlightlyFamiliarPeachyClair · 17/07/2006 19:38

i think MT has it right

when you have a state or religion or really anything from an indiviadual upwards who believes that they are THE chosen people thenyou have a firebomb waiting to happen

I have studied this at Uni (will be doing lots next year of this), read about it.... can't get my head around the idea that a country was just taken away.

You might be interested to know that on of my professors is something of an expert on the Middle east Conflicts (he specialises in Global Politics), and even he can't find a workable solution.

MadamePlatypus · 17/07/2006 20:32

I thought that Israel was initially handed over to the Jewish people by the British? I think it was intended to be a home to all those people who were persecuted by Hitler, who were not necessarily religious Jews, and had been ignored by the west. I think the problem is that at the time 'Arabs' were seen as lesser people (like many 'natives' living in the empire). I don't think they took their views into account any more than they took the inhabitants views into account when they decided to carve up India. I expect the British just thought they would all wander off somewhere else.

bloss · 17/07/2006 21:42

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bloss · 17/07/2006 22:00

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peacedove · 18/07/2006 01:36

Lebanon found peace? with the Shebaa Farms still under occupation!

bloss · 18/07/2006 02:34

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tortoiseshell · 18/07/2006 09:00

bloss - didn't mean could work WITH Hezbollah - meant if, as a previous poster said, the Lebanese government want to disarm Hezbollah, then maybe the Israelis should work with the Lebanese government. I don't know what they're position is re Hezbollah - whether they benignly oppose them, or secretly support them or what. But if the government IS against them then bombing the hell out of them is going to make it harder not easier to control Hezbollah.

Really wasn't suggesting Hezbollah and the Israelis teamed up.....

Piffle · 18/07/2006 09:12

had to stifle an ironic chortle this morning when Israel declared that Hizbollah had broken UN code 1559 and not disarmed
The more I read about everything the worse I feel.
It is debasing Jewishness as well I think, I know quite a few young Jewish people who think Israel is tainted land and will never see peace.
Someone said ultimately the holocaust could hurt the Arabs more...

And also how come every rocket fired from Lebanon is named as Syrian or Iranian?
What about the F 16's and the tanks and the UK and US weapons the Israelis use? Not to mention the billions of US$ funding Israel receieves

No wonder grudges are harboured

bloss · 18/07/2006 13:07

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bloss · 18/07/2006 13:11

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monkeytrousers · 18/07/2006 13:12

Piffle, I couldn't believe the fact the suppliers of arms were suddenly legitimate targets. The west is the biggest arms trader in the world. The hypocrisy in all this is just astonishing.

MadamePlatypus · 18/07/2006 14:25

"Really wasn't suggesting Hezbollah and the Israelis teamed up..... "

Although, I think if Hezbollah could have written a script for what they wanted Israel to do, I don't think Israel could have followed it more accurately.

trying2bgood · 18/07/2006 15:30

I think all we can do is hope that those in charge see sense and stop all this bombing. The Israelis' response is disproportionate but for them I imagine they feel the need to show strength and not appear weak to their many neighbours, none of whom are truly friendly. However, I think all this has done has put any chance of peace back another couple of generations at least. The average person on both sides justs wants peace but the average person never gets to decide..........

I would like to see a state for both the Israelis and the Palestinians, is that too much?

LiliLaTigresse · 18/07/2006 15:42

quite agree with bloss on this
Hezbollah is very well armed now, even has rockets that can reach Tel Aviv according the Jane's Defence
it's a sad scary situation
have british friends in Egypt who have an adopted daughter who is palestinian (and possible half jewish, although it's a bit of a mystery), it's all very tense over there too