Amanda Hutton found guilty of manslaughter

[Rowlers]

Just that.

I find the photo of that poor little boy very distressing.

My father's score on your handy chart, handcream:

The smell of drink, yes, when he'd been drinking
the shaking hands, nope
the red face, nope
the ability to not stand on your own feet, nope
the hiding of bottles around the house thinking they wont be found He didn't bother, they were all over the house in plain view.

Why was Mark Bridger not derranged if that was your thinking?

Duchesse - and still his partner didnt think he was a drinker. Really??

That's the sign tbh - the large number of bottles all empty. Who on earth did she think was drinking them...

Perhaps he was, but it's a completely different situation isn't it?

handcream

I wasn't paying full attention it could have been 2 children a week. All I remember thinking is, that's much higher than I thought it would be.

I think the zero tolerance approach may help. But I'm sure there's plenty of families that live under the radar. I'm sure there are instances where a family isn't known to the authorities. They don't seem outwardly dysfunctional yet abuse is going on behind closed doors. My point is no matter how much you legislate, carry out serious case reviews etc. children will never be 100% safe if a parent/guardian wants to harm them.

Someone said its difficult to spot a drinker. I beg to differ. The signs are there if you choose to accept them. Sadly your father's parnter chose to ignore them

I agree they are under the radar (it would be awful if they were top of the list and still nothing was done) but in the vast majority of cases they are know to various authorities who dont seem at all joined up.

*I don't think anyone is saying she isn't responsible.

It's just "the buck stops here" implies that she alone is responsible.

Yes, absolutely she failed her child in the most horrendous, sickening and tragic way. But society also failed, because no-one stepped in to remove the child from her care or to protect the child in any way.*

No. She did not fail her child. She murdered him. And as for Society stepping in to remove the child from danger, there will immediatly be howls of protest about the State interfering with Parents. Some of the very loudest protests would be on Mumsnet. Don't kid yourself that it would not be seen as an abuse of Human Rights.

Have just read that the older brother wasn't allowed to say anything about the body. She told him she would kill the rest of the children if he did.

I wonder if there will still be howls of outrage the next time someone posts "Should I call social services?" on here, with complaints that we are a bunch of judgemental busy bodies?

Probably

How did the school not raise any flags. ffs sake the smell of a rotting body permeates anything for a start. Let alone filthy unkempt children.

My DM works in a Inner London school (her old school before she retired) as a volunteer although she was a primary school teacher for 40 yrs. She reported a child to the head as smelling and always wolfing down his lunch. She was told as this child was from an ethic miniorty that the head felt she needed to tread carefully. They were claiming asylum and didnt want to be accused of picking on them!

I told Mum to ring SS. And she did. Sadly the child then disappeared a few weeks later. Head seemed disinterested. It was I guess someone else's problem now....

We, as a society, have to make up our minds some fundamental questions if we want this child cruelty, neglect and murder to stop.

Whose rights take precedence - parent, or child.
Should we be more vigilent in spotting possible neglect, and reporting to police or SS accordingly, even if our concerns turn out to be unfounded.
Should an authority have the right to enter homes to check on childrens welfare, without permission of the parents.
Should an authority have the absolute right to remove children deemed to be at risk, and keep them safely away from abusing Parents for as long as is judged neccessary.

Unless we accept radical change and support it, children will continue to suffer and die at their own parents hands.

What do YOU want?

BMW is right, what do we want?

More of these cases and less 'rights' for the parents who seem to take precedence over any children's.

If a parent refuses to let a SW in unannounced because they claim their child is sleeping does the SW break down the door? Or even threaten to?

That's what the SC did in the Hutton case and look what she found. I think what she did was fantastic but what if she had found nothing. She had only been in the role 2 days. She would I suspect be asked to leave her role. Or put on a written warning...

How can you say she was deranged and Mark Bridger wasn’t? If anything it could be argued that Mark Bridger snapped in a moment of insanity as he had no previous history etc. She on the other hand neglected her children for years and years, and calculatedly kept the authorities away. Not that I have any sympathy for Mark Bridger – I don’t. But ykwim.

Lots of murderers are mentally ill. Harold Shipman had serious drug addiction issues, Peter Sutcliffe/Ian Brady are in Broadmore (secure institution for the criminally insane). Do we suggest they didn’t get the help they needed before murdering several hundred people between them? No I didn’t think so.

We need to stop using mental illness as an excuse for neglect/murder. It’s an insult to those who are mentally ill and wouldn’t ever hurt anyone.

it seems shocking that one or two children a week are killed by parents.
The figure isn't conflating accidents in the home with cases such as this, is it?

I believe (someone correct me if I am wrong) that SW have no rights to enter houses without permission. They can get the police but often dont. Why is that?

I don't entirely agree with that.

I think the term Mental illness is too broad really, encompassing both the criminally insane and evil, for want of a better word, with most people who have a mental illness which means their thought patterns may be a bit erratic from time to time.

it's such a pity for the ordinary person with a mental illness, they have to suffer the stigma as well.

Wanna makes a very good point. There are plenty of people suffering with mental issues who dont undertake these awful crimes. We are almost excusing them because 'they are mentally ill'.

Well, that's Ok then, do what you like and blame it on being 'mentally ill or mad'.

Mental illness does not excuse this, there are plenty of mentally ill people that carry on with day to day tasks and treat their kids well.
She starved her own child, that is a decided thing!

Parental rights are given much greater importance than the children's. SW seem to give the parents chance after chance.

Someone further up the thread who had worked in SS said its time we had a critical friend SW. Someone who was looking after the kids interests as opposed to the parents only. Have an all night party and take drugs. Well, what is that doing to the child? Leave your child alone (and I think this is really common) while you go out to enjoy yourself. After all you are only young once. When you are caught you will be given chance after chance and providing you dont get caught again no one will ever know...

Sw do ring the police however even the police cannot remove a child unless there is an immediate risk of significant harm. If they cannot see that then they will not remove a child and you have to apply to a court. All this takes time which savy parents use to remove the risk the sw was initially concerned about.

I remember one case where there was a baby living a home similar to this case, I was allowed in and didn't actually see the child at first asshe was buried under tons of filth! I contacted the police, when they arrived they were refused entry and stated the area they could see ( the porch! ) gave no indication of significant harm and left. I battled with the mother for hours before she agreed for me to take the child under section 20 - voluntarily placing child in care.

The law needs to change so that hcp can remove if they feel the need is great enough without having to go through the above rigmarole