The Veil Debate

[boschy]

Forgive me if this has been done elsewhere, but I havent seen it.

So, there is this big debate at the moment about where/when/if women should wear the veil. Leaving aside the relious obligation, which doesn't seem entirely clear to me, I think there are other criteria involved.

For me, it seems that if wearing a full or partial veil obscures the wearer's face, there are certain situtations where it should not be allowed - for example, if you are in court on trial or as a witness; or as a teacher; or giving care (nursing/care homes etc) where those receiving the care would expect full face contact in order to fully understand facial expression, lip movement etc.

If, as an adult woman, you choose to wear the veil for most of your normal day to day interactions - then that's your choice. But in the situations I outline above, I don't think it's appropriate. Am I wrong?

[marriedinwhiteisback]

If one settles in another's country why go there if you aren't prepared to integrate and share their customs. I live in London; I see the full black veil (Niqab) a lot. I wonder what those wearing feel they need to hide or why they feel so special they feel they have to make a continual statement.

I am also very aware of the potential for terrorism/violence/crime. If one is entering buildings, possibly as a student, where a photo pass is required how can one be sure that the person entering is, for example, the enrolled student or employee entering a restricted area with strict data protection controls.

In a neighbouring borough there are two mosques side by side - both different types. There are continual fights and outbreaks of violence one against the other.

My father entered the UK as a refugee; my grandfather entered the UK as a refugee; two of my great, great grandparents entered the UK as refugees. They all embraced what the UK had to offer. I do question the purpose of those who come and refuse to integrate; I also am concerned that the way some people are trying to turn certain areas into self imposed ghettos is very dangerous and possibly just possibly there are those who are encouraging it because they know they will engender trouble and trouble is what they want.

[ErrolTheDragon]

If one is entering buildings, possibly as a student, where a photo pass is required how can one be sure that the person entering is, for example, the enrolled student or employee entering a restricted area with strict data protection controls.

Easy - you require the person to unveil for the security check. If you're doing something which needs a photo ID you're implicitly giving permission for this. This is yet another of the 'what about XYZ' cases where there's a straightforward solution.

I do question the purpose of those who come and refuse to integrate
Yes.... OTOH the British went to other countries with no concept of 'integration' - there's an element of reaping what we've sown.

Ghettoization is a serious issue, but bans and demonization would probably tend to exacerbate rather than alleviate the problem.

[CoteDAzur]

Errol - I think we can agree that the woman in that picture is an idiot. Covering her hair with a scarf does nothing to protect her face from the sun if she is worried about 'sun allergy'. She should wear a hat instead.

And again, if what she is worried about is 'sun allergy', a long sleeved shirt over jeans would work just as well as that black abaya.

Looks like a case of "I converted to Islam but don't have the balls to tell my family"

[AdventureTed]

Errol - what about once people are inside the building? What's to stop people with concealed faces from going where they shouldn't and doing things they shouldn't?

Concealing your face doesn't turn you into a perfect law-abiding citizen. Cctv wouldn't be much use either.

[CoteDAzur]

"living an alternative lifestyle to the majority, not disconnecting themselves from society"

Hiding your face away is disconnecting yourself from people around you. We have evolved over millions of years to get subtle clues from each other's faces, communicate with living beings with faces etc. You hide behind a curtain, people can't relate to you like they do normally to each other.

Also, there is no veil in the Quran and Mohammad himself has said in Hadith that a woman's face and hands should be visible. So I really don't know what passes for thought behind the black veil of a woman (if those are even women - who can tell?).

[boschy]

thank you to gosh errol and justa for your considered and informative responses, and sorry gosh for not picking up on your 17.22 post yesterday.

So... I guess the questions are:

how do we build bridges between veil wearers and those who dont?

do you even want to, or do you feel that because you have chosen an 'alternative' lifestyle that you dont feel the need to have much in common with more mainstream choices?

should we just let two worlds live side by side in peace (good option I'd have thought) or by not encouraging integration are we actually running the risk of more disaffection on both sides?

[1chocolatetart]

I know the conversation has moved on from the colour of clothing thing, but I was thinking about it on my walk this morning.

I quite like head scarves. I like colour and they are often beautiful colours and patterns. I look at them and think maybe I can tell something about the personality of the person, in conjunction with the way she is talking to friends or whatever, facial expressions, gestures etc. The Niqab takes away any hint of personality except for the assumption that this person is very religious, very private and doesn't want to talk to you. It's just a shame. I don't begrudge those who choose to wear it, but it send out a very clear message that they are not sociable.

[edam]

Western society has a long tradition of regarding anyone who covers their face with suspicion. I'm afraid anyone who chooses to cover their face in Britain has to cope with that. Masks have been associated with people who are up to no good for centuries; the only place I can think of where it's accepted is an operating theatre. You can't overturn British culture in a few short years.

There is also the issue that while some people may choose to veil, they can't speak on behalf of people who are bullied into it. Yasmin Alibai Brown wrote a column a few years back on being approached by a veiled woman, who realised Yasmin was a Muslim and followed her, in order to get to a place that was reasonably private i.e. not on the street, to say that her husband made her wear the chador and veil in order to hide her bruises.

I have no idea what proportion of women choose to wear the veil and what proportion are not making a free choice; I suspect no-one does. It would be interesting if anyone managed to carry out research into this. Maybe 99.9 per cent of veil wearers are making an active choice, maybe it's 75 per cent, who knows?

[ErrolTheDragon]

how do we build bridges between veil wearers and those who dont?

I quoted a statement from the president of the National Secular Society in a previous thread:
"Many people find the niqab disturbing, but banning it causes more problems than it solves. These women must be made to feel they are part of British society in the hope that eventually they might think again about shutting themselves off from it "

I'd start with that line of thought. Treat people as though they are a valid part of our society despite differences.

So I really don't know what passes for thought behind the black veil of a woman
'what passes for thought' ? Nice thing to say about another human being.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Edam - western society also had a long tradition of homophobia. Not many decades ago it was culturally unacceptable for a man to appear effeminate. Such men would be viewed with suspicion. Most of us got over it.

[CoteDAzur]

"'what passes for thought' ? Nice thing to say about another human being."

Yes, Errol, 'what passes for thought' because (1) there is no basis in Quran for the veil and Mohammad's hadith says a woman's face & hands should be visible, so Islam doesn't require it, and (2) we truly have no idea what is going on behind the veil.

We don't even know for a fact that there is a 'human being' behind that black curtain. We recognise other humans by sight, and there is nothing to see there but a black moving blob of fabric.

[CoteDAzur]

"should we just let two worlds live side by side in peace"

This is the only important question, isn't it?

It isn't even about dress codes. It is about mentality and compatibility.

Is the mentality that says women and men should be segregated & women hidden away compatible with Western tenets of equality, personal freedom etc?

And if not, how are they going to live side by side?

[AdventureTed]

Is the veil also employed to ensure that muslim girls only marry muslim men? Why can muslim men marry non-muslims when muslim women are strongly discouraged/threatened not to?

[CoteDAzur]

Both sides can marry non-Muslims... after they convert to Islam.

This is easy for women - takes a few minutes and a short prayer. Assuming both spouses are not really into religion, that is the end of the commitment from the non-Muslim wife.

Not so easy for men, who have to be circumcised when they convert to Islam. Ouch.

[AdventureTed]

In Germany this week, a Green party MP received death threats after urging muslims to take off their headscarves and live like Germans (Alison Pearson - The Telegraph).

[GoshAnneGorilla]

This is silliness now. Someone wearing niqab still looks human.

Identity checks have already been covered.

CCTV is generally set up to make it easy to "follow" people around buildings. Someone walking in with niqab can still be traced and it's not as if there is a niqabi crime wave.

Niqab wearers do feel that they are part of society, they just live a different lifestyle. I think it's very dubious to dictate who and who isn't part of society anyway.

Many niqab wearers are British born, a good proportion are not from immigrant backgrounds, so the "assimilation" argument doesn't wash.

Dislike is dislike, such opinions shouldn't carry any more validity just because they are aimed at a religious minority.

Just - thanks for that. I'd also like to thank Errol for their comments too.

[CoteDAzur]

These opinions are not aimed at a religious minority, since the veil is not required or even expected by Islam. The vast majority of very devout Muslim women do not wear the veil at any point in their lives.

I can say this as many times it takes for it to sink in: There is no mention of the veil in the Quran. And Mohammad has said in the Hadith that a woman's face and hands should be visible.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Cote - so you think a behaviour has more validity if its sanctioned by an old book? I don't.

We don't even know for a fact that there is a 'human being' behind that black curtain. We recognise other humans by sight, and there is nothing to see there but a black moving blob of fabric.

I can tell perfectly well that there's a human there.

[edam]

Homophobia is different and not a constant in Western society anyway. Homophobia is not concerned only or even primarily with appearance; poor Alan Turing didn't look any different to any other man of his class. The veil is a mask and masks have a long association with suspect activities in Western societies.

I'm afraid you can't make suspicion of face covering go away by saying 'it's not very nice'. There are whole regions of the brain devoted to decoding facial expression. You can't overcome that by saying we've imported lots of other foreign customs, why not this one.

[CoteDAzur]

What makes you think that, Errol? When have I ever given the impression that I care a hoot about "sacred" books?

[SilverApples]

I just assumed that you were using a relevant reference to support your reasoning that covering the face is not ordered in the Qu'ran.
Doesn't mean that you believe it, just that you have read and understood.
I've read the Bible numerous times.

[boschy]

the thing is, and I dont really know how to put this... I dont feel that I would have much in common with someone who chooses to cover their face in public. (although of course I know there is someone beneath the veil in answer to pp!)

this is MY problem I know, and I am sure that underneath there is a witty, clever, interesting woman (well some will be and some wont, but that's life anyway!)

but if the veiled woman doesnt want to know me, because of her assumptions about my clothes/western way of life/whatever, and I think there must be an element of suppression or very strong religious adherence about her, we are probably not ever going to find a chance to build that bridge.

which I think is rather sad.

[boschy]

yes crescent white for virginity, red for harlots!! certainly the tradition here in the UK. and no one used ever to wear black to a wedding although I think that is completely gone by the by now. however, would still be a bit off for future MIL on either side to wear all black - although Bianca Jagger may have done so at Jade's wedding.