The Veil Debate

[boschy]

Forgive me if this has been done elsewhere, but I havent seen it.

So, there is this big debate at the moment about where/when/if women should wear the veil. Leaving aside the relious obligation, which doesn't seem entirely clear to me, I think there are other criteria involved.

For me, it seems that if wearing a full or partial veil obscures the wearer's face, there are certain situtations where it should not be allowed - for example, if you are in court on trial or as a witness; or as a teacher; or giving care (nursing/care homes etc) where those receiving the care would expect full face contact in order to fully understand facial expression, lip movement etc.

If, as an adult woman, you choose to wear the veil for most of your normal day to day interactions - then that's your choice. But in the situations I outline above, I don't think it's appropriate. Am I wrong?

[amothersplaceisinthewrong]

Back to veils and supermarkets/shops, I am sure it was in the news a while back that hoodies were banned from a shopping centre . So why not the veil? Motor cyclists have to remove helmets to be served in a bank, so the same should go for the veil.

If someone wants to wear the veil, fine, but my choice would be to completely ignore that person and not speak to them unless they removed the veil.

[claig]

crescentmoon, it's nothing to do with black, it would be exactly the same if the veils were pink. It is not part of this country's culture and this week it was discussed about possibly being in hospitals.

[CoteDAzur]

^"Often we are discussed as if we don't exist"

If that's the case, surely it's because you have opted to disengage from society behind a mask and deliberately render yourself invisible?^

Exactly, Cogito.

[ErrolTheDragon]

OP - I think your initial post is pretty much correct. If an adult woman chooses to weir the veil for most day to day interactions, that's her choice. In certain specific situations - courts, security checks, certain professional situations - then veils are not appropriate.

What I don't understand about the current debate is that in those situations women already do unveil. The judge ruled on the court case; women have to unveil to have id checked for security, identity check before driving test etc etc. People seem say 'what about XYZ' like its a problem... if they just checked they'd find that the issue has already been thought through and solutions arrived at.

[marriedinwhiteisback]

Hmm. Well if I were to visit the Middle East I would not wear hot pants, a mini skirt of kiss in public because I would respect the culture of another country. Don't see the difference when others visit the UK tbh. Also, in the UK the Equality Act prevails. I could be a lot more supportive of the Burka, etc., if men wore it too.

[ErrolTheDragon]

"Often we are discussed as if we don't exist"
If that's the case, surely it's because you have opted to disengage >from society behind a mask and deliberately render yourself invisible?

Really? In the internet age when so much discussion is 'masked' and invisible anyway? How much discussion nowadays is actually face to face?

I work from home and am totally invisible to my colleagues - they don't treat me as though I don't exist.

Disappointing rationalisation.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Motor cyclists have to remove helmets to be served in a bank, so the same should go for the veil.

That seems like a reasonable specific situation - would be interested to hear what Muslims think about that. Would you be happy to do this (as its not an issue of the veil but of ID)? Would you be ok with it only if it was in a side office with a female member of staff?

[AdventureTed]

Crescent - I don't really notice what colour people are. Where I live there are so many nationalities it doesn't seem to matter.

I don't see people as either black or white anyway though, and don't equate the term "black person" with the colour black.

Black capes can look good, like on Snape in Harry Potter - so I think it is the whole face-covering thing that winds people up.

[GoshAnneGorilla]

Errol - I think this may happen already, depending on the transaction, certainly in situations when they are doing id checks. But of course, many people bank online or use ATMs so it's not such a big issue.

[ErrolTheDragon]

I think you're barking up the wrong tree about the colour, crescent - lots of people wear black, especially in winter.

Long black clothes are also associated with Christian religious people - priests, vicars, nuns, monks. Maybe nowadays we find some of those a bit iffy but not ingrained in our psyche as sinister.

I'm not sure what it is TBH - I don't find the women wearing niqabs that I see sinister. They're usually either with family or friends, talking to them, I can see their eyes. They're just people going about their business wearing different clothes.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Gosh - wouldn't be surprised...seems like another of those 'what about XYZ' that will already have a solution.

[AdventureTed]

Crescent - white robes with pointy hats tend to make people think of the KKK or the baddy wizard in LOTR.

When my mum was little she was scared of nuns.

Black flowing capes can give an air of mystery or authority, like Batman or Phantom of the Opera (one good one bonkers, but both are enigmatic characters).

[AdventureTed]

Crescent - you are right about black equalling death and mourning, and creepy stuff in folklore.

[ErrolTheDragon]

crescent - so, a colour of self-abnegation in western culture. Not a bad thing.

[SilverApples]

It's not the colour black, crescentmoon, it is the facelessness.
We ran English classes, and many of the learners wore outfits like this
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Group_of_Women_Wearing_Burkas.jpg

[LoveSewingBee]

Silver - personally I would refuse to teach such a class. I regard it as disrespectful to the teacher to be honest (if in the UK, if in Saudi Arabia it would be absolutely fine, but I would never go there).

[boschy]

I dont think there is anything wrong or negative about anything black - clothes, skin etc. possibly wearing black to your DC's wedding might have negative connotations in that you might turn into the MIL from hell. in western culture at least.

Veil-wearers, how do you respond to the point I and others have made, that we would not wear hot pants in the middle east (culturally inappropriate, mark of respect), or would expect to wear a mantilla if we met the Pope (culturally appropriate, mark of respect)?

I am genuinely interested in WHY someone chooses to hide their face to the extent that only your eyes are visible; and from the article I read in the Sunday Times last week, that while wearing it you cannot see properly, eat or drink. is this true?

Leaving aside the in court issue, which has been addressed, how do veil-wearers feel if/when they understand that possibly the majority in the UK don't understand why they do it?

[ErrolTheDragon]

Yes ... I've never seen a full burka in real life. Are there many in any parts of the UK? In my part of Lancashire theres lots of headscarves and a few niqabs, I tend to assume that discussions about the veil are mainly relating to the latter ... I've seen quite a few press pieces that use the word 'veil' or 'burka' but show a niqab.

[AdventureTed]

Silverapples - yep, the facelessness does it.