The Veil Debate

[boschy]

Forgive me if this has been done elsewhere, but I havent seen it.

So, there is this big debate at the moment about where/when/if women should wear the veil. Leaving aside the relious obligation, which doesn't seem entirely clear to me, I think there are other criteria involved.

For me, it seems that if wearing a full or partial veil obscures the wearer's face, there are certain situtations where it should not be allowed - for example, if you are in court on trial or as a witness; or as a teacher; or giving care (nursing/care homes etc) where those receiving the care would expect full face contact in order to fully understand facial expression, lip movement etc.

If, as an adult woman, you choose to wear the veil for most of your normal day to day interactions - then that's your choice. But in the situations I outline above, I don't think it's appropriate. Am I wrong?

[boschy]

London errol - its quite common, certainly was when I lived there, and still seems to be when I go back to visit.

[AdventureTed]

Crescent - I've seen at least one blue burkha wearer.

[LoveSewingBee]

I have come across those outfits in London but you see those little beak type thingies a lot more. Especially around Regent's Park and Edgeware road. Personally I would not be willing to teach people wearing those things either.

[boschy]

Yes I have seen the afghan burkha in London - more commonly, as lovesewing says, the beaky ones.

does anyone mind if I c&p my post from previous page? dont want veil-wearers to miss it....

[boschy]

I dont think there is anything wrong or negative about anything black - clothes, skin etc. possibly wearing black to your DC's wedding might have negative connotations in that you might turn into the MIL from hell. grin in western culture at least.

Veil-wearers, how do you respond to the point I and others have made, that we would not wear hot pants in the middle east (culturally inappropriate, mark of respect), or would expect to wear a mantilla if we met the Pope (culturally appropriate, mark of respect)?

I am genuinely interested in WHY someone chooses to hide their face to the extent that only your eyes are visible; and from the article I read in the Sunday Times last week, that while wearing it you cannot see properly, eat or drink. is this true?

Leaving aside the in court issue, which has been addressed, how do veil-wearers feel if/when they understand that possibly the majority in the UK don't understand why they do it?

[1chocolatetart]

I haven't seen the afghan burkha in the uk but I see the niqab often in Birmingham.

[AdventureTed]

Love - Beak type thingies? They sound creepy looking, I don't know what they are, but that description sounds like those things people wore (with herbs or flowers in) during the black death - and they looked really creepy. Maybe people feel wary of anyone who is wearing something that makes them less recognisable as a human being. This is just instinct isn't it?

[ErrolTheDragon]

No idea what you mean by 'beak type thingie' - does anyone have an image to enlighten us provincials?

Not that it actually affects the serious arguments. I have to admit that the full burka is beyond my comfort zone whereas I'm fine with the niqab but so blumming what?

[GoshAnneGorilla]

The beak type things are also know as a burqa. They are a traditional type of facial adornment worn by Emirati women and are generally viewed as something the older generation wears. Good article here: m.gulfnews.com/burqa-maker-covered-in-style-1.471207

Boschy - but there are lots of things a minority does which the majority doesn't understand, aren't there. I guess niqab wearing women would be fine with people not understanding why they wear. It's open hostility and abuse (which is very underreported) which they object and rightly so.

I was discussing the niqab on Facebook with several Muslim women, it was very sad how many had experienced such violence and abuse that they decided not to wear niqab.

[LoveSewingBee]

I don't think they are niqabs, they really are a type of bird like mask, they stick out like a bird's beak but are somehow also covered. They are most odd. I have never seen them anywhere except in London Regent's Park and Edgeware Road.

I suppose you may see them in Arab countries but as I don't go to those countries I cannot be sure.

[boschy]

Gosh "there are lots of things a minority does which the majority doesn't understand, aren't there. I guess niqab wearing women would be fine with people not understanding why they wear. It's open hostility and abuse (which is very underreported) which they object and rightly so."

I absolutely agree with the above, and abuse and hostility is not acceptable in any society.

so are you saying that the niqab wearing women do not want to be part of mainstream (for want of a better word) UK society?

because the fact is that virtually no one here wears a full face covering, they have not been brought up to understand or accept it, and rightly or wrongly they find something unsettling about it.

could you respond to my questions about hot pants in Saudi/wearing a mantilla to meet the Pope? why is meeting those cultural assumptions out of respect ok, but not accepting that covering your face is an issue?

[SilverApples]

'english classes in the UK silverapples? iv never seen any woman wear the afghan burqa here in the UK. '

This was in the 90s, crescentmoon, in Greater Manchester. New immigrants who were from the Quetta area. My school was a community school.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Gosh - oh, interesting, never seen one 'The design of the burqa is meant to mimic the features of the falcon, a symbol of grace, pride and strength.'. The one shown in your link didn't cover much of the face (reminded me of an old colonel type with big eyebrows and moustache TBH, probably not the intended effect).

[oohdaddypig]

Leaving all religious issues aside, I find anyone wearing a mask/balaclava quite sinister looking. Motorbike delivery people are asked to remove helmets before entering banks.

Much of our communication is non verbal. If I can't hear someone properly, I will focus on their mouth to further illicit what is being said.

So I don't really understand the practicalities of wearing anything that covers one's face. I find it an odd thing for anyone to want to do, on a purely practical level.

[GoshAnneGorilla]

Boschy - I've responded to that questionin my 17:22 post.

Niqab wearing women would view themselves as living an alternative lifestyle to the majority, not disconnecting themselves from society. Lots of people live in a way that would be considered as alternative to the norm.

O.P everyone can have a opinions. I have lots on the way people may dress or choose to live. The issue is what power people think their opinions should have. I think I should generally live and let live and keep my opinions to myself.

Yet for some reason, some people think their opinions about niqab wearing women gives them a right to tell these women how to live their lives.

This is probably because 1)We live in a society which is active in policing women's bodies in many ways, from airbrushing to pointing out celebrity cellulite.

2)We think that anyone deemed "foreign" is fair game to be lectured, because all foreigners must be cringingly grateful for getting to live here. Never mind that many of the niqab wearers are born and raised in the UK.

[AdventureTed]

Oohdaddypig - on a practical level, it must be difficult to wear a face covering if one has a cold - runny nose, feeling hot and like you can't breathe properly. There would be less chance of spreading it though.

I regularly see people wearing them at my doctor's surgery, and wonder if they have less chance of catching/spreading things.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Probably Ted. Which raises a question - people who find veils and masks 'sinister', do you have the same problem with this ?

[justanuthermanicmumsday]

Respect and religious conviction are two different things. You have your beliefs and stand by them and I mine. The uk law states I'm doing nothing illegal so why should I remove it out of respect when I truly believe in it? I pay respect to the people around me and the laws. I was born here this place is home. I'm 33 and now I'm questioned about my love for this country on the basis of my clothing. 10 years ago no one would have questioned me now it's an issue. I really feel like I have to assimilate or leave this country and why should I?

Boschy You can wear your hot pants, armless top etc in many middle eastern countries the law is not enshrined in stone in all of that region, with the exception of a few. You will be shocked to find women wearing such garments over there too ands walking side by side with women in the hijab, Lebanon comes to mind.

I'm saddened to think just a piece of cloth the size of a bandanna can provoke such ignorance fear and hatred.

Boschy this is the best question so far no one ever asks this. women cover their face depending on how they interpret the quranic evidence on what the hijab is ie whether it entails covering the entire body except the face hands and feet or whether it includes all these areas and the face as well. Hadith (prophetic tradition) is just as important and is included when deciding. so some see it as compulsory, some as bordering on compulsory, some as merely prophetic tradition that the early Muslim women did, and the last group see it as optional.

as to whether I can see I can. I wear a scarf most the time so I can adjust the eye area easily. I have the Saudi type niqabs too but the slits on those cannot be varied. If high quality ones are purchased sight is fine, but poor quality ones have slits that are too narrow or too wide. If I had a choice id use the Saudi ones since they are the most comfortable and breathable with the very sheer fabric. I wouldn't recommend face covering for driving though. If veiled women want to drive really it should be done without the face veil. The side vision is impaired especially with the Veils that have a slit opening.

I tend not to eat out never have been big on it. But before moving to Scotland I was able to eat out in family areas. Basically private dining rooms. there are none here which Is a shame but not the end of the world. The halal eating outlets here are pretty dire. if I need to eat ie at services on a long journey over 4 hours and I'm outside I find a corner booth type seat and eat. Or I get sandwiches and eat somewhere private outside or in the car as long as the kids haven't been sick in it.But most the time I eat home cooked food.

Silverapples I hope you are not lying. Because in all my years I've never seen a woman where the burka ie the afghani style grill type niqab. it's a cultural version of niqab which is seen no where but there. I've been to the largest gathering of veiled women in the uk several times and out of the 80% veiled women I saw 0 of these afghan burkas.

The colour black is an issue. when I was living in the midlands when I switched from wearing top to toe black to just a coloured headscarf with my black dress I was more approachable and received fewer hostile or even fearful looks. But in all black I can guarantee Muslim women with face veils or not will feel the hostility more.

Yes errol they say burka to fuel hatred and ignorance. I mean when I say burka I bet Afghanistan the plight of women, the Taliban spring to mind right, we'll it does to me. Thats the point hence they say burka. I can try and explain the different types if you want.

[justanuthermanicmumsday]

Goshannegorilla you have been expressing many of my thoughts on every question asked really succinctly thank you for that.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Justa - It'd be (almost) funny if the burka was banned ... and the result was no change because that's not what is worn in the UK.

Here is a less negative ?mis-use of 'burka' to mean abaya plus scarf.

[SilverApples]

Lying?

No, I'm not. There were three women that wore blue Afghan burquas to the free English classes we put on. Why on earth would I lie?

[AmandaCooper]

boschy you're not comparing like with like. Wearing less clothing than you are culturally, psychologically and spiritually comfortable with is not the same as wearing more clothing than you usually do.

[AdventureTed]

I've seen at least one burkha wearer in Asda, as I said. Accusing people of lying is not helpful.

[AdventureTed]

There are also some infant school girls who wear hair coverings who I've seen in supermarkets.