Another Muslim gang raping and torturing young white girls...

[endthiscowardice]

And yet again we are told that there is no racial or cultural element to this phenomenon.

I accept that absolutely child sex abuse is, horrifyingly, present across society.

But refusing to confront the ethnicity of the perpetrators/victims seems very unhelpful in addressing this particular problem. This is the nth gang like this with exactly the same profile of members, victims, and modus operandi.

Given the length of time most of these cases have taken to come to light, it's hard not conclude that the lives and rights of these girls were given a lower importance than 'cultural sensitivities'. Otherwise why were they disbelieved and a blind eye turned for so long, even when help was sought?

It makes me so angry that officialdom ignores this racial/religious elephant in the room. Members of these 'communities' are also too willing to deny the horror in their midst and aggressively claim their own victimisation. I've just watched a Muslim MP on Newsnight claim that he found Jack Straw's 2011 comments about this phenomenom (Muslim rape gang, vulnerably young white victims) 'offensive'.

More cases just like this are bound to come to light.

Am I the only one that feels infuriated by these flat-earthers who persistently deny the reality? And what can be done?

I'd be interested to hear the views of people from all backgrounds.

That is part of my point schro.

The media - especially some parts of it - report more heavily on this than they do when the victim / offender profile is different. The media get "excited" about some stories more than others. So RC priests, slebs, non white/non christian men being abusive = column inches. White british men / non white victims = less column inches.

That in turn skews public perception.

The media have an awful lot to answer for in this country. And lots of other countries as well I suspect.

I'll say it again; no-one is saying that there are not problematic and criminal sexual behaviours to be found in all other ethnic groups. But why this need to leap to mention them to deflect from any mention of the clear problems in some Muslim Communities? Why are their delicate sensibilities more important than children?
I am profoundly suspicious of people who react to any coverage of this particular type of crime with cries of "white men do it too" or "racist bias". They have an agenda which is troubling. They care more about ethnic offence than the fact that terrible crimes have been perpetrated against young, vulnerable people. That is fucked up.

'claig the media and MN report this much more heavily than they do crimes where the victims are not white and / or the perpetrators are white.'

I read the Guardian article linked to by exexpat and it seems to me that a lot of people are saying that this has no racial component.

Can you imagine if a gang of white males had done this to Asian girls? What would the Guardian article say then? Would it say that there was no racial component?

Fact is it is predominantly females being abused by predominantly males and that is what we seriously need to look at

Thanks for your spellblinding insights about sex offenders being mostly male NiceTabard. Not sure who on here is ignoring the fact that it is 'blokes' who commit most sex crimes and all rapes...I think that'll be nobody, actually. It's just not the main issue being discussed here because - guess what? - we know it's a given already.

(I think in fact we all knew this since we were small children and our mums told us that if we got lost we should find a nice lady to help us.)

You have actually written your posts as if you are the first person to have discovered this truth (which based on human physiology and anatomy has been a fact since before the Stone Age and beyond).

But hey, let's look seriously at it because we are all ignoring it

It is very interesting to read the wide spectrum of thoughts here, though sweeping statements and broad generalisations make me wince!

I just think it is very important that we bring up our children to respect themselves and others. We should do this irrespective of class, colour, nationality or religion. Respecting women, is not an option, it's a must and needs to be dinned in. And I think this is applicable not just in UK but everywhere. But since we are here, we should focus on this. The other significant thing is victim support, which in the current economic scenario is thin on the ground.

Skewed sex ratios, difference in cultures, the burden of shame, and poor protection mechanisms all contribute to this horrible aspect of modern living.

Action is important, especially if it comes out of this debate. What will you do? What will your friend and neighbour do?

Or am I being naive?

Their "delicate sensibilities" are not important.

What is important is that the authorities learn from this, and the abuse in care homes, and the abuse in the RC church, and the abuse by slebs, and all of this stuff and start listening to victims when they tell them stuff.

If the people in authority had listened to the victims and acted then much harm would have been prevented. It's not difficult.

Unfortunately I still don't believe that we are there.

MaMattoo there are things like the MN "We believe you" campaign, people are trying to do stuff.

There are often threads on here when criminals of this type get lenient terms, to write to the attorney general etc.

It is hard though.

Why is it that asian men abusing white girls gets so much attention, while white men abusing white girls, and black men abusing black girls, gets comparatively little?

Er, for the same reason that the Stephen Lawrence murder was so significant and generated so much newsprint... because it wasn't ^just' an appalling crime, it was racially motivated (though this angle was also ignored at first in that case).

Focussing on this type of case does not have to entail losing focus on the other types of case you mention, tabard. But the cultural patterns in this type of case need to be acknowledged, and understood. I don't see why, if you have child welfare at heart, you would want to resist that.

has the judge said it was racially motivated?

if there were asian girls hanging around the kebab stations and taxi places has it happened to them?

maybe asian girls are more scared of reporting?

endthiscowardice the stephen lawrence murder was high profile beacuse and only because his parents would not let it go.

Not sure what that has to do with this.

You are flagging up an example of the police being institutionally racist in order to deny the possibility that the authorities are racist? It's an interesting angle

"if there were asian girls hanging around the kebab stations and taxi places has it happened to them?"

You have, I suspect unwittingly, hit the nail on the head here. I know well someone who has had the unpleasant job of prosecuting a number of cases of this kind. Defendants often account for their behaviour by stating that the girls involved are, as Mr Straw said, fair game for this type of treatment precisely because they are hanging around at night unchaperoned in a way that girls of their own community rarely are, if ever. In other words the youg girl who is beyond family (for which read male) control is a slut, an object, to be used in whatever way they see fit. They are not actually people, in fact, in these mens' eyes.

enthiscowardice why do you think that crimes with a racial motivation resulting in the sexual abuse of children, are worse than crimes without a racial motivation that result in the sexual abuse of children? That seems to be what you say in your post, on re-reading it.

Do you think that racism is worse than sexually abusing children? Not that I would like to try and put a hierarchy on abuse, personally, but you seem to have views in that direction.

I am also reminded of the fact that when I travelled in the sub-continent I was advised that if I could not be with a male I should wear a wedding ring. the woman who was clearly male property would be free from interference. the woman who was beyond male control would be ripe for abuse. And so it proved.
There are problems in these cultures. Big ones.

nailak, well quite.

People don't know. They are guessing.

And how the general public guessing as to whether there was a religious / race aspect to these crimes, based on what they have been fed by the media, will actually help victims, is hard to see.

Karlos yes.

However we should never forget that there are problems - just as big - in our own culture. And because the people doing it are in our own culture, we find it hard to spot. It is all "hidden in plain view".

I don't think that the media has said that there is a racial element. I think they have said or implied that there is not.

"What Romanis describes as a "vibrant, cohesive, multicultural community" has had to face the suggestion that the extreme and violent sexual exploitation by a group of Asian men of deeply vulnerable young white girls had a racial element. The police will not be drawn, and those who study child sexual exploitation say the issue is deeply complex and cannot be reduced in this way."

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/14/oxford-gang-groomed-victims-hell

There maybe problems in our culture. However, my experience is that one can generally walk around our cities without a male chaperone without having one's breasts or bum felt, being hissed at or followed. These thing happen occasionally, of course, but with nothing like the frequency that they do in the sub-continent.

The worst sexual harassment I have experienced or observed in the UK, in fact, was when I lived in central Bradford. No prizes for guessing the ethnic background of the perpetrators.

It seems that profession may be a factor rather than race or religion according to some press reports.

"Is race an issue? Five of the seven men convicted yesterday (who will be sentenced next month) are British Asians and two are from north Africa. As the Daily Mail notes, members of a sex grooming gang in Rochdale convicted and jailed for "startlingly similar offences" in 2012 were all British Asians. However, The Guardian reports that while "patchy" figures on grooming cases suggest Asian men are "disproportionately involved" compared with their numbers in the national population, many law enforcement experts say ethnicity is not the issue. They believe occupation is key. "Young vulnerable girls migrate to the night-time economy, where they come across taxi drivers and people working in takeaways, who are more likely to be Asian," one source told the paper. "It is better to focus on the professions of offenders, not their race or religion."

www.theweek.co.uk/crime/53027/oxford-grooming-gang-raped-and-beat-girls-young-11

India has a had a lot of high profile cases of rape and murder of women and small children. I don't think that mistreatment of women is purely a Muslim or even an Asian problem.

Prehaps Britain is unusual in having reasonable rights for women.

NiceTabard - 'how will it help?' is a good question. My answer would be this - if stereotypes exist within different communities, and if those stereotypes are leading to people being harmed/abused, then a) we need to know these stereotypes exist because then b) they can be tackled.

So if there is a belief within a certain community/ethnic/racial group, that a certain behaviour, skin colour, social background or different ethnicity means that girls belonging to that group are considered fair game, unworthy of respect, pieces of meat for men to use, abuse and throw away, then that belief/stereotype needs to be tackled in that community.

In this instance, it is being suggested that some asian/muslim/pakistani men hold this belief about white girls who behave in a particular way. If this is the case, then their communities and the wider society need to educate them in the fact that all children, indeed all people have the right to go about their business unmolested, free from abuse - and that every child is precious, not just the well-behaved ones.

ok stop

hold on

what is this "our culture" bull shit.

You are saying that an Asian who is born and brought up here, educated here, married here, lived their whole life here and perhaps been a few times "back home", his/her culture is represented by behaviour of people in sub continent?

Because I would say British culture would be more representative of his culture then Indian culture.

WHat the hell has what men do in subcontinent got to do with british asians?

Here is the racism, is the presumption that those with brown skin are different, other, not part of our society in Britian, more likely to be influenced by society in a country they most likely visited a few times, then the society they actually live in etc

Karlos

Hidden in plain view.
Men born and raised in UK culture will on the whole go about abusing and exploiting in a way that fits in with our culture.

It is hardly extraordinary for any of the things that you mention to be done by white men in the UK.

What needs to be done, is to have sound laws around sexual abuse and harrassment etc, for victims to be listened to, and for authorities to act whenever they possibly can and in a way that is in line with the crime.

I am pointing out parallels in the views stated explicitly by these offenders of these backgrounds with attitudes to be found widely in the societies they trace their origins to, nailak. I see this makes you uncomfortable; the smear of racism is a common response to discomfort of this kind - one I'm largely immune to, in common with an increasing number of people, I think. Part of the vehement response to crimes of this nature is caused by reaction to the fact that for a long time it has not been acceptable to focus on the ethnic components of this type of crime. by attempting to shut down debate by screaming "racism", you are actually making the responses you claim to worry about more likely.