Toby Young - women don't want most childcare either

[Xenia]

Toby Young in today's Sunday Telegraph magazine Stella argues men do not want even more boring mindless childcare. Well nor do women. So the answer is have good careers as women and then you can avoid that dullness. It is not a gender issue. Clearing up sick is as boring for women as men. Lower earners may well be shunted into that dull stuff and to keep the higher earner man they have to do it but Mr Young needs to know plenty of women don't want to do more childcare either. I always thought two hours a day was pretty good including weekends. Too much more and you'd rather be doing other things.

I don't think that planning your life out before living it is such a great idea. How do you then cope with the unforeseen? How do you seize new opportunities? It all sounds really dull and uncreative to me and most of the couples I know who married young and made plans according to what they already knew (ie had seen during their upbringing) are the ones who end up in crisis at middle-age because their old systems fail to take account of changing circumstances.

Agree bonsoir.
I try and live each day as it comes.
There is enough grief and sadness in life without pre-empting it.
Yes dh could leave me. I could leave him. We could lose all our money and belongings...we could.
Doesn't mean we will.

Life is a journey, not a destination and all that... Sometimes I look at couples my age (mid-40s) and they have clearly always had a destination in mind, devoted all their resources to getting there young - and then what? Live out 40 or 50 years doing exactly the same thing in the same place as their parents did? Probably even send their DC to the same schools they went to?

That is why I work to live and not the other way around. It is too depressing for words to get good qualifications, work to retirement, not know what to do with yourself and eventually die, having paid school fees for your DCs to do the same. At some point someone is going to want to get off the treadmill. In my case time off with small DCs kept me sane- I know that paid employment isn't the 'be all and end all' and retirement is something to look forward to - with endless opportunities and interests.

Humans didn't get where they are today by adhering strictly to the goals of previous generations, that's for sure. My tolerance for people who are imbued with traditional codes and values gets lower and lower with every year that passes!

I agree completely about role models. My mother always worked. My father and evenmy mmother's father can cook and clean.

I come from a long history of smallish family businesses on both sides of the family.
With, on the whole, joint finances. Which is a different situation again.
And that is what is wrong with Xenia's model. As exotic says, there is no one right way.

Bonsoir as regards the planning. I think it is very wise to roughly, and I say roughly, work out how many chilrdren, when, who and when goes out to work.
Even now, my daughter is getting serious with someone. And he has sensibly asked whether she would be interested in moving with him to America sometime in the future. [she would]
But imagine a man or woman thinking that, before marriage, and springing it on the other partner afterwards.
Hugh potential for either disaster or a lot of upset.

If you leave things to chance many women end up being unable to have the numbers of children they want and plenty end up with no qualifications and a life of poverty because they lived each day as it came in their teens, messed up their A levels and drifted through their 20s. Planning can be a good thing particularly if you also have the internal capacity to cope with set backs and are able to adapt to changing circumstances.

Smallish family businesses bring their own issues. I have advised a few with disputes. Certainly it helps even if people are family to have a written agreement. Same with wills. All these women living for the moment each day as it comes - how should I paint my nails today types who never read a pension plan in their lives... they get their come uppance when their partner dies or runs off as there was no plan, no back up, no protection, no insurance. It might feel fun being a decorative flower who lives from day to day but it is not usually wise.

My daughters have access to and the eldest reads feminist books, not sure I would class Caitlin Moran as a feminist worth holding up as an example though.

I think there is planning and planning. I knew I wanted a large family and I wanted a career. I wanted someone who would be fully involved in the lives of our children, someone who was bright ambitious and had an insight into my family background. I almost had a shopping list and DH met all of my criteria bar one - he had already been married. I turned away quite a few possible contenders because they did not match my list sufficiently well. I hadn't planned to such detail that there were no surprises left or that I would feel a failure of I did not meet all of wish list - although if I had struggled to conceive I word have been heartbroken. We discussed finances, childcare etc before marrying and we didn't live together before marrying - although we married quite quick!

It has certainly made our lives much easier, knowing in advance what we expected from one another and where we wanted to end up.

My sister got married having "had the conversation" with her DH, which included moving to Spain to live - her DH had spent 10 years in Spain as a child, spoke fluent Spanish and got a job starting up the Spanish division of his company, so they had the full expat package and lots of home comforts. My sister is a linguist, so learning Spanish was not a big deal. She agreed to it all.

She hated Spain!

I never had a life plan as such-vague ideas and flexibility have served me well. As Bonsoir said -'life is a journey and not the destination'. You might be on the way somewhere but you miss a lot if you are not prepared to stop off and deviate or even change the route.

I want to move to Spain is quite specific ! I want a large family and a husband who is intelligent and not a sexist twat leaves some space for deviation !

I mentioned C Moran because younger girls do like that writing and if you hand them a 1970s feminist book it may be less likely to interest them.

Some people don't plan anything. I think the problems tend to come if a planner is with a non planner or a tidy person is with a messy one etc etc. If you both want to lead unplanned chaotic lives lurching from last minute plan to last minute plan that's fine. However most people do benefit from some planning even if it's just financial and wills.

Certainly if a planner is with a non-planner what often seems to happen is that the non-planner gets fed up of living the planner's life and runs off at some point!

Yes, depends on the couple and some people are happy to be but a decorative flower on the arm of a man who controls all money, finances and does all the outside work and I suppose that works for some. Also plenty of men are pretty feckless and cannot manage anything so they hand all their wives to their wife who then run it all (happens in Japan and was the traditional UK working class model - he gets his beer money, she uses the rest of the family) so I suppose that different combinations work.

However if people really are totally different it does make living together harder.

I'm actually quite a manic planner, but I like lots of unknowns in my plans - I make sure that we all do new things every year and don't repeat experiences, either individually or across the family, unless it is very desirable to do so. I would find it so dull if we didn't all travel to new places or try new activities or jobs regularly.

Yes, it is certainly sensible to effect change. People can get in a rut and find it hard to do new things if they do not stretch themselves, particularyl as they get older. They say even just changing the way you arrange your breakfast or route to work sometimes is wise.

On the other hand changing all the time is not ideal either as routine enables the rest of life to function easily so we all have to balance the two.

I think it is very like a journey. Xenia planned it early, got on the motorway and is set on getting to the destination, without deviation, and once she has got there she will have trouble getting off and doing anything differently.
I would say that I planned it and got on the motorway,but part way along I decided to get off, stop, and then decided not to get on and just to amble along the side roads - doing the odd bits of motorway as the fancy took me. I will certainly know when I have reached the destination and will stop- take a different journey.
Other people have no plan, amble along the side road and then suddenly see where they want to be and speed along the motorway. Others are on the motorway and find it is the wrong direction and get on another, going somewhere else.
The combinations are endless- I can't see why one is better than another- unless you are forced onto the wrong road rather than choosing it.

feckless men?that'll be those men whose wife buys their chuddies
apparently theyre incapable/too busy and its women's work
that level of fecklessness in adult is really grim. and its infantalising behaviour of partner

Whatever you think about Toby Young (and he clearly lives in a toolbox) I do think that he is being unfairly demonised here. The slant was not as has been portrayed. Read the blog. It's not very well-written, not particularly edifying, but it doesn't demonstrate generalised sexism.

I read the article and he was saying all his male mates want to avoid hours more of childcare and housework and that women are better suited for that kind of thing and love it. I was saying not the case - plenty of women like a small amount of time scrubbing the loo and the toddlers' bottoms and we do not differ from men in that regard. And then you have the interesting case of his marriage where wife solicitor - huge capacity to earn many times what he does and yet she has given it all up to be his domestic servant which of course does not make any economic sense and means he has to try to found a new school because he doesn't let his wife work to earn money to send the children to St Paul's say....

Ae all cope with life. If you have lot of money and capital it allows you to detour as much as you like , stop work, decide to take a week in Bhutan or take up a new sport or whatever. If instead you earn very little you are stuck on that motorway unto your latter years as an impoverished pensioner turning down the heating to save money.

Scottish

what are chuddies? Totally agree, both my sons are more than capable of managing themselves well. People are surprised they are so domesticated and say so. They cook, clean, wash, iron, sew a hem and buttons. (same as me). Manage small DIY projects, help with larger ones. Talk to people from all walks of life.
Neither dh nor my dc have ever made me feel like a "housewife" because I haven't been one. Disclaimer. I do loads for my dh business because I did similar work pre dc and I enjoy it. He is more than capable himself and was nappy changing from day one. Any man is capable and its our fault for making them namby pamby they do need a woman to do everything for them.

Xenia

You think you scrub a toddlers' bottom? No, surely not?

chuddies=pants. apparently some women buy their dp chuddies.hes too busy etc
complete infantilisation.presumably otherwise capable adult needs misses to buy his chuddies

Scottish

I tried once, he politely asked me not to bother again what I can't understand is why would a woman know what was the best for their dh anyway.