Toby Young - women don't want most childcare either

[Xenia]

Toby Young in today's Sunday Telegraph magazine Stella argues men do not want even more boring mindless childcare. Well nor do women. So the answer is have good careers as women and then you can avoid that dullness. It is not a gender issue. Clearing up sick is as boring for women as men. Lower earners may well be shunted into that dull stuff and to keep the higher earner man they have to do it but Mr Young needs to know plenty of women don't want to do more childcare either. I always thought two hours a day was pretty good including weekends. Too much more and you'd rather be doing other things.

That's very true.
I derive HUGE satisfaction from eating hob nobs and watching re runs of buffy :)
It I realise I may be in a minority there

housewives do earn their keep, child minding cleaning and in bed.
Most working parents do not only view their worth as work - they have much more rounded lives than women chained to the kitchen sink.

As for mental health loads of studies show it is housewives who have the worst - it was pill popping in the 50s, then it was gin and tonic, now I suppose it's donuts and chocolate and probably wine as well and of course prozac. Most women and men are not as happy being at home as if they also have some work in their lives.

You have a strange, warped view of family life.
I don't recognise it at all.

Xenia, do you personally know any SAHMs at all?

Hob nobs, Xenia.
It's hob nobs now.
I am glad you qualified your last post with the word "most"!

We aren't some strange other species Xenia, honestly!
We are quite normal some most of the time :)

It sounds terribly like something from a 1950s magazine.

Read mumsnet threads - husband will not give me money or share his wages etc etc etc

Anyway my only point was to say that it is weird TY thinks women adore the worst of domestic jobs and are better suited to take them on and men find them boring. It must be pretty hard to married to someone lie that unless you were brought up in a Stepford wife situation so you see it as your cultural norm.

I actually aspire to be margot from "the good life".
I would love a turban and housecoat and to swank about and harass tradespeople.
I could do am dram and drink Martinis in the afternoon :)

Oh god, Xenia, I am not better suited to it AT ALL!
Dh is much better at cleaning than me.
He just earns more therefore simple economics dictate he goes to work and I do the majority of childcare and the cleaning badly
I don't think any sahm would say they enjoy cleaning?
Apart from those weirdos who say they like ironing.
There must be support groups for those poor people :(

Xenia has a huge point re the finance thing. There is at least one big thread a week on this topic. My view is not that you have to go out and be hot shot solicitor, but if you want to be Sahm it is VERY important to agree rules about money up front. And as Xenia says, choose not to marry sexist, abusive men.

Easier said tan done though

it's risky to be wholly financially dependent upon a partner

I agree Porto, but no woman actually seeks out those type of men :(
Before having dc we both agreed it would be better for us if I stayed at home with the dc.
Ds2 was a bit of a surprise too :)

There's also at least one big thread a week about the challenges of working full time with young children, wish I didn't have to leave my baby with the nanny etc.

Different strokes and all that.

True.

If you have an equal partnership you sort it out first. Xenia seems quite sexist in that she makes the assumption that the man brings more to the marriage in the first place.

in fairness I don't think women actively seek misognistic men
it's complicated,and maybe partially unconscious too

there's a socialsciencetastic thesis in choice partner and societal expectation

Well mine did exotic...
I brought myself, my portable CD player (remember them?), cds and my clothes.
He did pretty badly out if the whole marriage thing really tbh.
:)

I agree sm. we all grow up in the patriarchal bubble. We marry what we see as normal, lovely men.

And don't discuss these things til it is too late.

indeed this goes back to have the big conversation eg finances,kids,career
be clear on expectation,preferences and things significant to you
I'm eternally surprised couples don't discuss big significant stuff prior to getting serious

First of all you can ensure your daughters read feminist books. A lot of the younger ones like Caitlin Moran. We also bought books for 6 - 8 year olds from a feminist book club which showed women as doctors, men at home etc.

Secondly before you marry them you can look at their set up - does mother do everything at home and the men of the family sit around like young idle Gods? That can be cultural norm in plenty iof families - avoid those like the plague. Also look at whether his mother worked full time, perhaps out earned his father or whether their family culture is women earn pin money.

Also look at his domestic set up - does ht take his washing home to mother, does he expect you to do it. Then when he suggests you iron his shirt see how he reacts if you hand him your two blouses to be ironed for work tomorrow.

My father hoovered. My mother supported him for 12 years from her income whilst he did his medical studies. They are a family of strong women, very little sexism. Some families are not like that - women instead run after men, clean, do child care. Even if the man works he is still off playing golf every weekend. he gets more leisure time than the woman or is down the pub more nights than she is down the pub and she accepts that as he provides the money that feeds them all.

I am thoroughly glad that my mother left me free to read whatever I wanted- nothing is more irritating than a mother with an 'agenda'.
Children never do as you say, they do as you do- you can say what you like, get them to read anything going- it is useless if you are not doing it yourself in daily life.
I would agree with you for once at looking at the home life Xenia. I grew up with brothers - I never did anything more in the house than they did. My father could turn his hand to anything. I come from a family of very strong women- strong enough to have a choice and do your own thing.
My DH does most of the ironing in our house- he can turn his hand to anything and I can't see why he should be the only one to go out. Now we are both free to go out when we want, but when we needed babysitters we had a calendar - if one wanted to go out when the other was already down for going out it was up to that person to sort a babysitter.
I dare say that I don't understand all this because if you have lived with men all your life, as I have, you need to sort it out early- you have no need at all for Caitlin Moran.

The problem is that most women look at the future DH's family and marry him anyway! They don't run a mile or sit him down and sort out how it is going to be. There is a thread at the moment where a woman never gets to watch what she wants on TV - even when he has dropped off to sleep! And she puts up with it.