Toby Young - women don't want most childcare either

[Xenia]

Toby Young in today's Sunday Telegraph magazine Stella argues men do not want even more boring mindless childcare. Well nor do women. So the answer is have good careers as women and then you can avoid that dullness. It is not a gender issue. Clearing up sick is as boring for women as men. Lower earners may well be shunted into that dull stuff and to keep the higher earner man they have to do it but Mr Young needs to know plenty of women don't want to do more childcare either. I always thought two hours a day was pretty good including weekends. Too much more and you'd rather be doing other things.

It seems to me that there are parents who want to be with their children 24/7 and parents who want to be with their children 2 hours a day including weekends.
And everything in between.
Not sure why I am writing that tbh.

The people none of us ask much in all of this is the children themselves.
I think I asked mine once,if I remember correctly, and they said they liked it that I was home when they came in from school.
[dad works from home or near home btw]

i am unequivocal i love my kids,but couldn't be ft housewife.so what?
doesn't detract from my ability to nurture and parent.far from it
it means in attuned and reflective to what is my preference, and its not solely being home

Yes, what would the kids prefer? There is not one answer, depends on kids, parents, carers and other stuff.

I think most kids like to have a reliable adult there to listen to them, and to feel cared for, this can be a parents, other relative or CM/ nanny/ manny.

Scotsmum, you seem to be defending against an accusation I never made.

I mean, I was not saying or implying anywhere that you or anyone should be a FT housewife, I don' t think anyone is saying that, actually, are they?

My mum was a SAHM, it wasn't good for her.

And because I know that, I wish now she hasn't done it.

Did you become a wohm because of that[assuming you are a wohm]?

my kids would prefer to eat happy faces and not go nursery/school.as adult with capacity i chose they dont
parent role is to make safe,appropriate choice within age appropriate limits
of course my kids dont have free choice that would be inappropriate

I choose to see my children two hours a day during term time, I have four biological children, a stepson and hope to have at least one more child. I do not need to work but choose to do so.

A number of posters have asked why someone would choose to have that many children and see so little , as if you have to clock up so many hours to be considered a good enough mother.

I adore children, I love being pregnant, love babies, love toddlers and older children.

However I have much more to give , over and above being a mother, I also need more than that.

But I am a loving, nurturing and dedicated mother.

chandon youre backtracking so much you got skid marks
you opined some contentious rot,in style why have em if...
you now seem to be reframing your post

Yes, I am a WOHM.

Hmm. I think, as with so much, watching what my family did informed what I did, either "yes, I'll do that too" (have two kids) or "no, that's a bad plan" (do my shopping on a set day each week).

I don't think it's as simple as that, though. I know myself and I judge that I am happier working. DH has made the same judgement. Either of us could have been a SAHP, financially, but we've decided to both balance work and home instead.

It never really occurred to me that I wouldn't work, TBH.

Oh come come SM, that isn't what Chandon said.
Disliking domestic drudgery is one thing, calling all childcare mindless/stultifying/beneath you is another. I found mat leave alternately thrilling and more stress than I ever imagined with a healthy dose of boredom thrown in, not to mind the odd bit of ennui, but I don't think that this translates to = "minding children is for dull women who have no imaginations or desire to contribute to the wider society" as some do because of course raising kids has absolutely zero effect on society these days, strangely.

I think full time childcare for your own children pushes anyone doing it to the very limits of who they are. It can be exhilarating or soul-destroying or anything (and perhaps everything) in between depending on the individual.

I work because there's really only so much of the self-revelation I can bear. I prefer to feel competent. I love my children dearly but they can reduce me to feeling that I haven't a clue about anything. Some of this has been quite good for me but too much and quite frankly I'm heading to the doctors for pills to keep me sane (ah, how I wish I was joking... such a stereotype but so be it).

I am very sceptical of anyone who really believes they know what's best in terms of child rearing as it seems to me to be similar to suggesting you have discovered the meaning of life. It's different for everyone and people choose the way of doing it that works out best for themselves and what they want to stand for in their brief period of time on this earth. For some that's work, for some that's family, for some that's a bit of both but let's not cod ourselves that anyone has found the One True Path with this. Whatever you do there will be welcome and unwelcome consequences, that's just life.

yes i found aspects of mat leave,the precious moments mamas absolutely stultifying
so what?does it mean i love my dc less?No.it means not working being home doesn't suit me
we had kids for usual reason-we wanted to and i work in conjunction to parenthood

I know that sexism is rarely best and women hav been kept down for generations by men and women suggesting mother's place is in the home and don't let the little woman get ideas above her station that she might work or even be financially independent of a man. This is the policial point. Your personal choices are political and affect other women, your daughters and the position of women in society. It is a massive issue. For the first time in the UK women are 60% of graduates and under 30 earn more than men. Then it all goes wrong as they marry richer men or they choose to bail out of work b ecause of cultural and sexist conditioning and rely on men for money for enough time that their careers are usually destroyed and they never reach positions of power. About 10- 20% of senior roles go to women on board, the cabinet, etc etc. It is because of the average mumsnetter going part time or giving up work that that is so and it is damaging for the country and women and does not benefit children either.

Like Aris above I adore children and babies and breastfeeding and also my work (just like except for the breastfeeding part, many men),. That for many women is a rounded life and gives children a good example.

Just because you want to spend 2 or 3 hours a day with children does not mean you hate them and should not have them. Many men and women are in my position - good parents who work.

I will have done more hours of childcare anyway than any housewife with 2 children under 5 because I have had 5 children spread over 28 years so far so hour by hour I have more experience of children than they have in terms of hours put in. I need a medal perhaps for the parent on this thread who has done the most hours of childcare.

If you have looked after three children under 4 or 5 (which is what we had in the early days) you will know that much of the task is domestic and dull. Yes breastfeeding is wonderful even if the toddler is trying to kick you at the same time. Yes, showing little children around the gardem, bed time stories cuddles are some of hte nicest parts in men's and women's lives but I would say have it in small doses as a 10 hour stint of it is very very boring a lot of time, a lot of it is containment of mess and children. A lot is very repetitive - spooning food into them, clearing it off the floor, dealing with sick, washing clothes, getting the kitchen tidy for the umpteenth time and dealing with squabbles and rows. You can have alovely close relationship with under 5s whilst looking after them for just a few hours a day.

Very true, reluctantlyCatholic- people choose what is best for them, and you are right that everything has it's welcome and unwelcome consequences. Your DCs are not you, they also have their own ideas and character. The DC of a WOHM may see them as an important role model and do the same, they may think 'no way am I doing that when I have DCs'. It is the same for those with SAHM they may think it was the way to be a mother or they may see it as the way NOT to do it. You can't possibly tell, they may be different within the same family.
MN seems very set on there being 'a WAY' to parent and if you follow x,y and z you will end up with a close relationship with your emotionally secure, responsible and successful adult child. Life isn't like that and there are no guarantees. You can only do what suits you best and hope that it suits your DC. What is right for one parent can't be right for every parent and what is right for one DC can't be right for every DC. We should stop thinking we have all the answers for everyone.
If you are bored rigid spending 24/7 with a small DC it would be much better for all concerned not to do it. The mistake is to think that everyone is bored rigid by it- or that one way is better than another.
A 'good enough' mother is fine - I always think the 'perfect mother' would be hell to live with!

I think that is why I wouldn't have had 3 children under 5 Xenia!
I had one and you can go anywhere and do anything with one. I then had another 2 close in age when I was much older and as one was then at secondary school it was a much wider picture. I was also much more experienced and wiser.it also means that I have been a mother for a very long time. Each to their own.

There is also a huge difference between a woman of 21yrs becoming a mother and one of 41yrs becoming a mother, in the second case I think people can stop the patronising 'little woman' bit and assume that she is a mature woman who has had 20 years in a career and knows what she wants- and intends to do it.

Exactly, exoticfruits. The 'false consciousness' argument is patronising beyond belief and astounding to hear in the year 2013.

My close friend has a phd in biology and chemistry - she worked as a research scientist at a top London university before children. She never went back to work after her first child and indeed had 3 under 5 - oldest now 6.

She earned more than her husband, although they're fortunate enough to be able to live on his income now.

She's one of the happiest, grounded people I know.

It's not the lifestyle choice I made, but I don't think she was somehow deluded by a patriarchal society into making it.

Xenis and others utopia model only works on the internet or in peoples' minds.
In practice, for the other 10 hours while a child is awake, a man or another woman has to look after them.
And how many men do we all know doing it?

The utopian model is just making men pull their weight and having a fair home life and society, something many couples manage.

I am simply saying to eulogise dull domestic stuff which most people want to have others do by suggesting it is hallowed and female and worth huge value results in women being kept down in the home.

Xenia.
I don't have a cleaner because they wouldn't do it right. Simple really.
I clean my home the I way I like. When I like. How I like.
Very much how I live my life, in fact :)
We don't have much money, true.
But hopefully that won't be forever...there aren't a many people I know with 1 income and 2 young kids who do have plenty of money tbh (I do not live in the SE or London, however)
It's not hallowed, what I do.
It's pretty boring sometimes actually.
(Ironing, anyone?)
BUT I get to take my mum to her hospital and dr appts, i get to spend time with my lovley little baby neice, I get to do my voluntary work, I get to be around for my kids (they are still young).
It works for us.

Do you ever examine your own disparaging view of domestic life, Xenia, and make a connection between that and the fact that you don't have one? Do you like being single?

That's vicious, Bonsoir.