Toby Young - women don't want most childcare either

[Xenia]

Toby Young in today's Sunday Telegraph magazine Stella argues men do not want even more boring mindless childcare. Well nor do women. So the answer is have good careers as women and then you can avoid that dullness. It is not a gender issue. Clearing up sick is as boring for women as men. Lower earners may well be shunted into that dull stuff and to keep the higher earner man they have to do it but Mr Young needs to know plenty of women don't want to do more childcare either. I always thought two hours a day was pretty good including weekends. Too much more and you'd rather be doing other things.

It's not vicious. Xenia clearly doesn't rate domesticity, ergo she doesn't spend any time on it, ergo she doesn't have much of it. Nothing in life comes for free - we invest our time and energy and, if we do well and are a bit lucky, we get our rewards. Xenia has a hard time understanding that people make different life choices and that hers are not necessarily all that attractive to everyone else.

I think I agree with Xenia's post of 7.49am

There is a difference between wanting something and doing it because you feel it is best for your baby. This distinction appears to have passed Xenia by. I looked after my own children and never used paid-for childcare because I felt that was best or my children. For them. It's called maternal instinct.

I think more important than choosing a career is choosing a partner with whom to have children.

I don't think I've written about my personal life on mumsnet. I am pretty happy with my personal life. Or me being happy and healthy ilke most people are the most important things. Most humans, male or female, are happiest when they have not too much domesticity and financial independence and they also protect their children best by not living off male earnings.

You don't write about it because you aren't happy with it, Xenia. You write about absolutely everything that you think makes you look good and you gloss over everything that you are ashamed of/doesn't live up to the image you want to project!

Xenia is forever awarding herself medals and great big pats on the back.

Theres self belief and then theres having a need for a good therapist.

Getting personal, bonsoir?? Xenia must be hitting a nerve with you.

How sad to see this race to the bottom. OP, one can only hope that those charged with caring for you when you are old and vulnerable will try to look beyond the monotony and mess, and won't give up once their two-hour boredom threshold has been reached. Good luck.

The reality is we can't all have amazing, highly-paid careers. But we can all choose supportive partners who will be good fathers to our children.

Xenia has always struck me as very resilient. I doubt she will be concerned by such comments. but they do say a lot about those making them.

I'm absoluely certain that some people like spending as much time as possible with their DC and others want to mix it up, but I'd be shocked if anyone positively wanted to do housework. If they made self loading dishwashers and self cleaning loos wouldn't everyone buy them?

And why do people assume Xenia is single? For all we know she has a veritable harem of strapping young men to pander to her every need!

www.nosacredcows.co.uk/

Why did he have 4 kids then?

more women should pat themselves on the back for doing a good job

more women should get medals

I never think Xenia writes things to make herself look good - a lot of what she writes is not seen as "good" by mainstream society (as this thread shows!) - things like working full-time, taking minimal maternity leave, being a single mother, taking full control of her life etc.

the whole point is that society mostly tells women that they shouldn't be in control, and that is very damaging IMO

H

Yes, but with her little medal speech she was, again, demeaning the lives of other women who do the childcare.

Its great that shes so sucessful. But shes not the only happy woman on earth who is good at what she does.

I know plenty of middle-aged divorcees who talk about nothing but work and are disparaging about domesticity and the raising of DC. They have tense relationships with their exHs who are generally pretty rubbish fathers. Their self-esteem is rock bottom but they absolutely refuse any suggestion that they should relax their uncompromising position on the comforts and pleasures of life. They never, ever find another man.

The problem with the op's posts on this thread, so far as i can see, is that she professes to speak for all women and assumes we all want what she has. I find people obsessed with money incredibly dull, i really don't care about material possessions and would much rather spend quality time with my child than work 12 hours a day just so i can have a fancy car.

xenia the things you describe as dull and boring are what most of us call life and life as they say is what you make it. I enjoy pottering around my house/garden, i enjoy spending time with my child, i also enjoy working but i work to live, not the other way around.

I could have more disposable income if i chose to work more, however i chose to have a child and i rather like spending time with him, he is amusing, funny, insightful and makes me laugh out loud on a daily basis. For me, dull and boring would be spending my days hanging out with a bunch of solicitors/city workers.

We are all different and get pleasure from different things in life, why can't you just accept that?

If you change the word 'women' in your posts to word 'I' then fine, that is your POV but please don't make sweeping generalizations as to what makes other women happy because it is impossible for you to know that.

I am sat in a sunny Room, watching benidorm on catch up, drinking tea and eating choc hob nobs.
I am pretty happy :)

I am not sat in an office, hot and bothered, with people I despise, doing work that bores me for minimum wage.
I have done that in the past.
I know which I prefer!

The thing is that life has shit boring bits all over the place, for everyone really.
Owning a house means you clean it - or someone does anyway.
Pets are an overhead in terms of money and looking after.
Gardens need tending
Kids need looking after.

The thing is all these htings have great bits and bad bits. I love gardening, even weeding, lots of people don't. DH hates it - but helps out as it needs to be done.

The pernicious thing about TY is he is saying "I don't like X about parenting so Ill push it off on someone else and tell them they should do it as realy they like it more and are better suited to it".

I think pushing crappy jobs you don't want to do onto someone else and then telling them you are somehow doing them a favour is truy shit - it is basic exploitation.

No gender is biologically better suited to one job or another job. You may have a personality suited to one hting or another, or been trained from birth to do something - bu it isn't in your X or Y chromazone.

I never knew competitive parenting could be taken so literally - i.e. a quantitative evaluation of who has done the most parenting! Bit silly I think, but that may just be because I would clearly finish last with only 1 11 month old under my belt! Must get procreating....

I do think that in Xenia's model (which I am pretty much living I think) one side effect is that both parents suffer parental guilt. LittleFrieda, it's not just maternal instinct, it's something that both parents can and should ideally have. DP is probably a better parent than me, he is crazy about our DD and has bonded with her better than I have, despite 11 months of breast feeding and 8 months maternity leave. DD cries when her dad leaves the room but not (always) when I do.

I know that DP finds it every bit as hard as i do to leave her and gender led social convention / expectations have nothing to do with it. It's just really tough to have a tiny person you adore who makes it absolutely clear that their idea of bliss is to always be within 2 feet of you. And who cries like the world is ending when you leave them. Even with a nanny she really likes.

That said I'm not about to stop work because I would go stir crazy at home with her. I guess this is a bit selfish potentially but there are probably hundreds of times in a child's life where parents make the (perfectly reasonable) selfish choice.

have that good hour with the children

What on earth?

If you don't enjoy looking after them, don't have them.
It's not compulsory.
Why on earth is getting away from the kids you gave birth to seen as some sort of achievement for feminism?
It isn't.
It's the opposite of that.
Xenia, I DO NOT WANT A GOOD HOUR
I want more than that. A lot more than one good hour.
I'm sorry if you children bore/bored you.
Mind don't.

"We really need Ms Young on this thread as it is such a good example - she solicitor who potentially could earn £500k to £1m a year if she were any good. He journalist - will always live in relative poverty."

They certainly will when mean minded people like you call online subscription a "pay wall". So, journalists should give away their work but you should charge for it? Interesting perspective