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Toby Young - women don't want most childcare either

593 replies

Xenia · 28/04/2013 13:44

Toby Young in today's Sunday Telegraph magazine Stella argues men do not want even more boring mindless childcare. Well nor do women. So the answer is have good careers as women and then you can avoid that dullness. It is not a gender issue. Clearing up sick is as boring for women as men. Lower earners may well be shunted into that dull stuff and to keep the higher earner man they have to do it but Mr Young needs to know plenty of women don't want to do more childcare either. I always thought two hours a day was pretty good including weekends. Too much more and you'd rather be doing other things.

OP posts:
exoticfruits · 01/05/2013 19:46

Same here dogsandcats-I would have been totally miserable if we were fighting over who did the bulk of the childcare-I am so pleased that I got to do it.

exoticfruits · 01/05/2013 19:48

That is what I mean about choice scottishmummy-I wouldn't criticise your choice at all, or Xenia's choice. I just wish that we got the same the other way around.

scottishmummy · 01/05/2013 19:51

Take that big ole cross of your back,you're not under attack.not from me
It is possible to stridently discuss this without feeling got at.you should try it

lljkk · 01/05/2013 19:57

I love my job,I get a satisfaction and solvency from it that I wouldnt get as housewife

That must be so satisfying, to have a job or career you love. I've never found that for long, I am pretty sure I never could (am old enough to know myself now). Dull as FT minding kids can be, at least it was less exhausting than juggling a dull job with the dull task of minding kids PT.

exoticfruits · 01/05/2013 19:58

I can't see why people don't discuss it before they get pregnant.
With DH1 there was no choice, for financial reasons I would have been back at work full time. Sadly he died before I got back and I was financially secure as a widow so my immediate decision was to stay at home-never regretted. I went back, part time when he went to school. There was nothing sexist about this-there was no man,it was feminist choice on my part.
When DH2 and I decided to have a child we discussed how to work it. I think he expected me to want to work-it is a big thing to go back to a baby after an 8 yr gap. I immediately said that I wanted DC2 to have what DC1 had-as we could afford it we did. Had the career been important to me then we would have made different choices.
Again, I have never regretted it. I think there are plenty of women who feel like me, there are equally many who don't wish to get off the career ladder-each to their own-I can't see why we have to tell people they are wrong and keep on about the dullness and make out you are chained to the kitchen sink etc. Most jobs have their boring parts-even David Cameron must have parts he would prefer not to do.

exoticfruits · 01/05/2013 20:00

It is possible to stridently discuss this without feeling got at.you should try it

I could quote a lot of Xenia's points on women who stay at home-I won't- but I would say that she is getting at me!

scottishmummy · 01/05/2013 20:01

Yes imo have the big talk eg kids,pg,finances,expectations when getting serious
I know married,now divorced olk who didn't do the talk and assumptions of each other v revealing

Arisbottle · 01/05/2013 20:02

I have about two hours a week day with my younger children , quite offended at the suggestion that I should not have had children because I can't love them.

lljkk · 01/05/2013 20:05

With 40% of pregnancies being unplanned, I can see why these matters don't get discussed. Wink

I always meant, was absolutely determined even, to go back FT work after each baby born, that was what my mother did, normal to me. I grew up thinking that SAHMS were a strange mythological anachronism. Not until I was 34 weeks pregnant with DC1 did I realise I might not like return to fT work after baby. So I argue for flexibility.

DH is now delightedly looking forward to being a PT SAHD. He couldn't be more excited about it (home bird at heart).

exoticfruits · 01/05/2013 20:07

No one has said that Arisbottle. I know that people loathe the saying but 'happy mother-happy children'. If you don't want to be at home why would you? You can be a dreadful mother if you are at home all the time,a wonderful mother if you are out at work most of the time and vice versa. Do what suits you-just don't expect everyone to feel the same.

exoticfruits · 01/05/2013 20:08

I dare say that a lot are unplanned but you can at least discuss it before they are born. Assumptions cause the problems.

Arisbottle · 01/05/2013 20:20

Exotic it has been said on this thread. A poster above said, why have children if you are only going to have them for 2 hours a day , they are not compulsory.

Am on the iPhone app so can't scroll up as I post, but there were others .

Arisbottle · 01/05/2013 20:21

I don't expect everyone to agree and to be honest most of us don't choose, we make the most of the situation we are in.

But people on both sides are being judgemental .

Thurlow · 01/05/2013 20:22

Portofino - Xenia's central message is fine. That women should have higher expectations, have careers, marry men who will do their fair share etc. but she ruins it with the 100 k jobs stuff

YYY

I was thinking like this on my way home (ironically from my f/t job to see my DC for 1 hour before bedtime).

My problem is the way Xenia has mixed two opinions and, in doing so, has spoilt the important opinion. It is absolutely right and pressing that we talk about why certain jobs are seen as for women, and why those professions tend to be paid much less; it is absolutely right and pressing that we talk about why women, more than men, tend to put their careers on hold when children are born.

But this so important discussion gets ruined by all this talk about women with no ambition, doing 'demeaning' jobs etc, belittling anyone who doesn't have the 'drive' to get a super-high paid job.

I've actually just come across an article from 2010 that says that earning over £100k puts you in the top 2% of earners. Which just makes a bit of a joke of any discussion of high earning.

Portofino · 01/05/2013 20:47

That's the thing though, Thurlow. To me there is a difference between the women who choose to stay home because the family budget allows it, and those who stay home because the family budget gives them no choice in the matter.

exoticfruits · 01/05/2013 21:55

Xenia has an important message, unfortunately it doesn't get through because of the way she presents it. If she worded it differently I could agree with it.

scottishmummy · 01/05/2013 22:05

i think for some of you the over personalisation means you lose all objectivity
i think some see a disliked name and the red mist descends
why i never understand all the i hate soandso wish could hide poster threads

Portofino · 01/05/2013 22:20

Where does the over personalisation come from though SM? Xenia has a good point but wraps it in her own life which is un achievable for 99% of the population, no matter what school they went to or how hard they work.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim · 01/05/2013 22:25

I read an article by TY a while ago in which he bemoaned the fact that having so many children meant he didn't get invited back to people's houses.
I'm not sure it's the kids who are the problem, Tobes .....

scottishmummy · 01/05/2013 22:29

imo,some feel overly got at,or over personalise posts and posters.muddying mn
for sure i stridently express my pov,and expect others to do so too.that's the point
interestingly there is all the psycho-babble to explain,over intellectualise an online spat

SlowlorisIncognito · 01/05/2013 22:35

I think it can be good though, for a woman to say "I've done this, and so can you." I agree that under normal circumstances, it is much more likely for a journalist to work at home for pin money, supported by a solicitor, than for a solicitor to give up her career to look after children and be supported by a journalist.

I have never had much desire to be a SAHM. Even when I was in school, I remember expressing this in a politics lesson, and being told "oh, maybe you shouldn't have kids then." The teacher would never have said that to a boy/young man. I have often been made to feel like there was something wrong with me because I don't like housework, or anything like that.

The first time I moved in with a boyfriend, ironically I was the one who ended up subbing his rent. He used to say if we ever got married, he would want a pre-nup, just assuming I would end up having less than him. I was (and am still) much harder working. I don't know where he is now, but I don't think he's going to end up mega rich. It's just the assumption that was in his head.

I have chosen a career that means I may never earn megabucks (Conservation) but it is my passion, and something that makes me happy, and there is potential to earn more money as I gain more experience. I don't need to be super rich, but I need to be fulfilled, and I do look at my own mother, and women in my family, and just think, when have they ever made a choice for themselves, just for themselves?

It shouldn't be considered the default that women do these things because they enjoy them, because that, generally, isn't true.

Chandon · 01/05/2013 22:38

If looking after kids is the most horrible way to spend your time, that goes for Toby, Xenia or anyone else who says this.....then WHY have kids? Really, why?

If looking after them is the pits, why do it? regardless of being a man or woman, sahm or wohm, if you hate being with the kids....why have them? And then why have more?

This always confuses me. Not being sarky or deliberately obtuse, but if looking after children is the worst way you can imagine spending your free time, then why have them?

scottishmummy · 01/05/2013 22:41

i found aspects of mat leave stultifying.no desire to be housewife ft.
disliking domestic boredom and housewifery doesnt disbar me from being parent
far from it.i love being a parent and working.thats why i had kids.kids arent preserve only of housewifes

Chandon · 01/05/2013 22:46

No, obviously not, scotsmummy. I would not presume that.

I just don't get people like Toby and Xnia who thing looking after kids is so awful.

Clearly, if you have a job you love, and you then lve seeing the kids when you get home, you are not the person I was talking about in my post upthread.

Chandon · 01/05/2013 22:48

To clarify, I am not asking people who work why they have kids.

I am asking why people ( sahm, whm, man or woman) who hate spending time with kids have them.