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Grayling defending smacking

999 replies

seventiesgirl · 03/02/2013 11:38

Never did him any harm apparently. The tory party are such a bunch of tossers. Whatever next?

OP posts:
doyouwantfrieswiththat · 05/02/2013 10:05

As usual perfectstorm you've put it far more eloquently/persuasively than I have.

amazingmumof6 · 05/02/2013 10:14

thunk and larrygrylls I very much agree with what you are saying.

Phoebe47 · 05/02/2013 10:41

No I do not agree with Chris Grayling. The man is a complete tosser. What would he do if someone slapped him because they did not like something he did/said?Smacking is assault in my opinion. Large adults hitting small children. Bet most people who smack their children when they do something they do not like wouldn't hit an adult who was behaving badly. Why not? Because they would be frightened they would slap them back. If an adult slapped us for behaviour that was unacceptable we would call the police so what makes it right for us to hit children. Children get told off for hitting other children. It must be very confusing for those children who get smacked by adults. One law for the adults and a different one for the children. Makes no sense to me. There are more positive ways of managing children's behaviour.

PissStickMeg · 05/02/2013 11:06

But children cannot reason as well as adults - I snacked my daughter when she was two because she deliberately ran into the road in front of a car. I was folding the pram ready to get on a bus, it got stuck, so I had to let go of her hand. I heard a car, looked up at her. She looked at the car, smiled at me, then took off. Luckily I managed to grab her, but she needed to know that with what she'd done she'd crossed a massive line. So I smacked her. Much less painful but possibly about as memorable as being flattened by a car.

If I'd waited till we got home and put her on the naughty step the momentum would have been lost and she'd have forgotten why. Likewise, she's the most 'spirited' of my children, so telling her off would have been a bit meh for her. This was a lesson she needed to remember, I'm afraid. I have about one memory of being smacked as a child, and for something similarly dangerous. I still love my parents and understand entirely why they did what they did.

amazingmumof6 · 05/02/2013 11:11

phoebe47 - there's probably no changing your views, but if you want answers to how the "other half" thinks, do read my previous posts, please.

this thread is one of those "agree to disagree" ones, so I think I'll sign off as it's too tiring to explain things to people who just don't want to hear that their are differences between slapping a kid or beating him within an inch of his life.

none of the people who choose to smack as an occasional measure agree that their power should be used to such a degree or even near it and certainly not exclusively!

but that message seems to be lost, along with some really valid and reasonable points.
so for that reason "I'm out!"

larrygrylls · 05/02/2013 11:16

Phoebe,

"One law for the adults and a different one for the children."

Yep, agree, should be one law for all. Children should be able to sue for false imprisonment when put on the naughty step. And they should be able to take their parents to an employment tribunal claiming ostracism when they are given a time out. And, as for an imposed bed time, why should they have to go to bed any earlier than their parents? Completely condescending and unfair.

joannita · 05/02/2013 11:24

wish this was like facebook and you could like peoples posts!

perfectstorm · 05/02/2013 11:29

It isn't comparable to the domestic situation between a man and woman because a man hitting a woman is not responsible for teaching that woman everything she ever knows or keeping her safe from herself. The balance of power is different and violence in this relationship is likely to be of a much higher degree, be symptomatic of very severe issues and has a very different meaning.

No, it isn't comparable now, because a woman can leave. She is not totally powerless. She has legal recourse and society on her side. A child does not. I'm not sure how you can argue that absolute power and total defencelessness makes violence less problematic, frankly. In any normal assessment, that's an aggravating factor.

A child doesn't even know that it's wrong to be violently assaulted at the whim of the person with absolute control over every aspect of their lives, and reading this thread, it seems quite a lot of adults don't know that, either. And as I mentioned earlier, societally it used to be exactly the same. Men beat their wives to discipline them, and that was seen as completely reasonable because wives were regarded as essentially inferior, and owing their husbands obedience in much the same way. All that's changed is societal sanction.

I'm also baffled by the notion that it's somehow a justification of hitting a child that a man hitting a woman is not responsible for teaching that woman everything she ever knows or keeping her safe from herself. You think it's a good idea to teach a child that violence solves problems, is acceptable, and the only option when someone really pisses you off? Kids learn by example, so all it teaches is that you can force someone weaker to obey you without question, and hurt them if they refuse. I don't actually like the idea that my child will be in a playground with kids being taught that. It does not seem to me to be a healthy or sane lesson to be teaching.

Parenting is hard. And I have a lot of sympathy for adults who lose it and smack very occasionally, because they are surrounded by a culture that says it's okay, and nobody can wind you up quite like your own family can. What I have no sympathy for is people who then try to rationalise their own violence towards their kids as being somehow a sensible parenting strategy, and not actually violent at all, and if only all of us beat our kids like them the world would be a better place. Ask any social worker: most problem kids do not come from homes which abhor violence. Quite the reverse. And it's plain ridiculous to claim otherwise.

Calm authority works. It's exhausting, sure, because gently correcting behaviour and talking through why things are unkind/silly/unacceptable is time and energy consuming, and often you have to do it when screaming on the inside. But it's a parent's job. I don't have the right to hit my kid, because I don't have the right to hit anyone. Violence is wrong.

What really interests me about this is that when you call smacking what it is - violence aimed at getting a child to do as an adult wants, without any attempt to teach them to regulate themselves via thought/conscience - people get antsy. They insist that they aren't talking about assault, violence or beating; oh no, just smacking. It's a real example of Orwellian doublethink. If you really want the right to violently assault your own child, then at least have the honesty and guts to state that that is what you want. Mealymouthed euphemisms don't alter the bare facts: it's using violence and the threat of violence to force your will on a child. And I doubt many of the people briskly saying there's nothing wrong with a smack would be happy to do that. If you can't speak honestly and truthfully about what you're actually doing, then maybe you shouldn't be doing it.

amazingmumof6 · 05/02/2013 11:32

ooh just one last point to make - there's a massive difference between a child disobeying deliberately, or just being clumsy or forgetful or silly.

you can tell the difference easily because a child that is challenging authority will watch you like a hawk to see your reaction.
they are checking if they are allowed or not and how far they can push boundaries and that is when you really have to show them where those boundaries are.

deliberate disobedience is when a parent really must put their foot down.

I would never smack a child for accidentally tipping over a cup of juice, but if a child despite being warned pours the juice on the floor with a massive grin on their face, that is an act of deliberate defiance and is to be dealt with a firm hand, which may or may not be smacking.
in these cases kids are very aware of what they did wrong and will benefit from a parenting style that is consistent

perfectstorm · 05/02/2013 11:33

^"One law for the adults and a different one for the children."

Yep, agree, should be one law for all. Children should be able to sue for false imprisonment when put on the naughty step. And they should be able to take their parents to an employment tribunal claiming ostracism when they are given a time out. And, as for an imposed bed time, why should they have to go to bed any earlier than their parents? Completely condescending and unfair. ^

You expose your own ignorance. There are plenty of occasions when adults are subject to the care and control of others: those with mental health problems, the elderly with dementia, prisoners. In none of those cases is it legal for anyone to subject them to violence. Even if the violence is being administered by a parent, in fact. It's actually regarded as an aggravating factor in sentencing, assaulting someone who is of such obvious vulnerability.

MrsBethel · 05/02/2013 11:38

I find the left do-gooders just as stupid/fundamentalist as the some of the right-wing nutjobs.

A tip: if you find yourself with an extreme opinion, which necessitates calling people 'tossers', there's a very good chance that actually, you are the tosser.

FWIW, I don't smack. If I had to rank the most damaging parental practises, by the damage they cause, I would go for:
(1) ignoring bad bahaviour;
(2) trying to 'reason' with a toddler;
(3) smacking.

perfectstorm · 05/02/2013 11:40

their are differences between slapping a kid or beating him within an inch of his life.

Sure; there's a difference between a man who slaps his wife regularly and beats her to within an inch of her life too. It doesn't make the first okay - in fact it's generally deemed "low-level domestic violence". And is still illegal.

You are using violence to force your wishes on a child. It's wrong, but more than that, it's a stupid way to discipline, because all they learn is not to piss you off, and that violence is okay. It doesn't teach them to regulate their behaviour in your absence, or why what they did was wrong in the first place, which is surely the entire point of parenting? To teach a child to develop self-control, and a conscience?

I think some people think a good parent is someone whose kids obey them without question. I think a good parent is someone who eventually raises a decent adult, with integrity and kindness and the ability to think for themselves. And I can't see how violence is helpful, if your aim is the latter.

amazingmumof6 · 05/02/2013 11:41

larrygrylls Grin I was just about to leave, but you have made it more fun!

why stop there?
they should be responsible entirely for their own actions and make independent decisions and be charged with willful negligence if they fail to change their own nappies from day one.

now I'm done

Oblomov · 05/02/2013 11:47

I do love a good MN smacking thread. NOT. Sad

perfectstorm · 05/02/2013 11:52

they should be responsible entirely for their own actions and make independent decisions and be charged with willful negligence if they fail to change their own nappies from day one.

So you think it should be legal to hit people with learning difficulties, mental health problems, senile dementia, or any other form of brain damage? All cases where people are dependent on the care and decision-making of others? You would be happy to be regularly slapped in your old people's home, or for your parents to be?

larrygrylls · 05/02/2013 11:56

"Sure; there's a difference between a man who slaps his wife regularly and beats her to within an inch of her life too. It doesn't make the first okay - in fact it's generally deemed "low-level domestic violence". And is still illegal."

If my wife behaved like either of my two young children, I would not hit her but would be obliged to have her sectioned. She would probably have thrown all our possessions down the stairs, smeared herself with jam and be telling me that she was spiderwoman and at least half believing it.

These analogies are just ridiculous.

larrygrylls · 05/02/2013 11:58

PerfectStorm,

Our children are not "vulnerable adults", they are children. They are not demented and nor do they have brain damage.

And if we did treat them like your "vulnerable adults" we would be outsourcing most of their care to strangers. Do you ask for respite care for your normal toddlers?

doyouwantfrieswiththat · 05/02/2013 12:02

It's very revealing. I wonder if I know any of you in real RL.

perfectstorm · 05/02/2013 12:08

Moving goalposts as usual are we Larry? You said no adults could be subject to authority in the way kids are without that being illegal. I pointed out that was bollocks. You are now waffling on irrelevantly as an attempt to deflect from the fact that you were just plain wrong.

The law is clear that certain categories of people are vulnerable, and as such, subject to the decision-making of adults of greater capacity. Children fall under that umbrella, and it's a legally clear principle that when they become able to voice their own thoughts and have them taken into account varies, but before that, their wishes and rights must be subject to oversight. Gillick competence; wishes in child residence and contact; when a child is legally responsible for their own crimes. Similarly, the courts will examine whether a vulnerable adult is able to make their own decisions, or be subject to the decision making processes of others. That was your point - that adults have the power to control children's behaviour in a way we would not regard as acceptable between adults - and I pointed out that that is flat out wrong. Our rights over children are there for their protection, just as our rights over vulnerable adults are. So your point was mistaken.

Having said that, actually I don't care what you think, having read too much of you defence of the sex industry and how it's totally healthy and sane for men to buy women's bodies. Your position on this is no surprise, because your posts in general do tend to support the most morally bankrupt position available.

PandaWatch · 05/02/2013 12:15

For those who do condone smacking of children, at what age is it no longer acceptable? Is it for as long as they are legally children or just whilst they're small enough for you to get away with it?

There's a delightful article in the DM today where the journalist talks about smacking her 14yo daughter. I wonder if she would have done the same if the child in question was, for example, my 13yo nephew who is already 6 feet tall with a build fitting for a boy who is a rugby player and rower.

TravelinColour · 05/02/2013 12:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

larrygrylls · 05/02/2013 12:40

Perfect,

"Having said that, actually I don't care what you think, having read too much of you defence of the sex industry and how it's totally healthy and sane for men to buy women's bodies. Your position on this is no surprise, because your posts in general do tend to support the most morally bankrupt position available"

You should know that it is completely unacceptable to drag things from other threads on here. Don't want to discuss this but all I have said is two willing adults should be able to do what they like. Let's leave that issue there unless you want me to report you.

Your views always represent one adult imposing their views on another and judging others in what they do from a position of unimpeachable moral superiority. It must get very boring sitting on your cloud looking down in horror at the fallible mortals.

PissStickMeg · 05/02/2013 12:43

Travelin - she was (still is) a very wilful person. Getting down to her level would mean she'd give me the 1000 yard stare as I put across my point, even if I repeatedly told her to look me in the eye. If either of her siblings (same age now) are told off, they say sorry and cry. She just isn't like that - though as she's grown older I can reason with her and we can talk about why doing things is a bad idea, and how she'd feel if it were done to her etc etc. Normally at that age I did the explaining and hoped it went in, but on this occasion she was putting her life at risk by trying it on. She never did it again, by the way. And I've never smacked her again as a result.

larrygrylls · 05/02/2013 12:49

Perfect,

Further.....

"Parenting is hard. And I have a lot of sympathy for adults who lose it and smack very occasionally, because they are surrounded by a culture that says it's okay, and nobody can wind you up quite like your own family can"

How condescending can you get?

"If you really want the right to violently assault your own child, then at least have the honesty and guts to state that that is what you want."

I assume that you are exaggerting for effect. The types of smack that most of us on this thread have given would scarcely register on an adult. I wonder what a policeman would make of a complaint that they had been hit on the back of the hand by someone and it stung for about 60 seconds. Violent assault?!

Dahlen · 05/02/2013 12:55

You don't even have to hit someone to be guilty of assault. Just the threat of it is enough. A smack on the hand would technically be common assault if given to an adult, though in all honesty it would be highly unlikely to go anywhere.