Grayling defending smacking

[seventiesgirl]

Never did him any harm apparently. The tory party are such a bunch of tossers. Whatever next?

Polka - you've seen countless people STATE facts of the impact on them of being hit, but you appear to be ignoring them all? Ditto the 'smack or nothing", whereas MANIFESTLY that is simply not true (if it was, then how do those of us who DON'T abuse hit our children manage to raise them into perfectly civilised human beings?) For a teacher (if that IS what you are), it's beyond depressing to see such a lack of common sense, critical thinking, advocation of violence in someone in such a role.

They are linked.I was raised in the 70s when smacking was common and behaviour better.Smacking has been removed and nothing has been put in it's place.

Parents don't know what to do. Err, excuse me? Speak for yourself hon, I - and as a parent who has had to deal with the WORST of issues facing my sons (& their behaviour then following that, and needing the HUGEST care/love/boundaries), and on my own due to those same issues - DO know what to do....

It's loving them; giving them VERY clear boundaries; facing a consequence if those lines are crossed; and most def NOT 'showing' them and 'TEACHING' them that violence is a route to anywhere (other than all the factual outcomes YOU CAN SEE in this thread, and the clear NSPCC statement about what hitting your child does). It's about sticking with it even when you are so tired and at wits end. THAT'S proper parenting.

If you want to say SOME parents don't know what to do, then that's your right; to state so unequivocally and de facto 'ALL' "parents don't know what to do is both misguided; uninformed - in spite of it being sooooo clear to you via here? - and a generalisation that ipso facto you have included ME (& the rest of us who DO raise our kids well but without using violence against them) in? THAT you have NO right to state as some kind of 'fact'. As as a statement of 'fact', it is simply beyond wrong/not accurate/not a truth (you get gist).

PS BTW, as a Parent Governor previously at a senior state school, I can tell you that EVERY child we had to see as a panel vis possible exclusion (IE almost alway re violence as zero tolerance policy) told us very clearly that THEY were hit by their parents. Can you see a link there Polka?

I haven't read all the thread but I agree with OP. As far as I am concerned the entire Tory party are the scrapings of humanity. Grayling is a conceited hypocrite and Cameron and Osborne are the utter pits. OK smacking - NO not on any account whatsoever - you can't teach a child it's wrong to hit others if you are hitting him.

I haven't read Grayling's stuff on smacking but of course all of the cabinet will have been to public schools where there is a big emphasis on corporal punishment, well it would have been in their day, and it's supposed to be "character building" - my god it's done that - but what sort of character.

It's another take on Major's "Back to Basics" - Gove wants things to be like when he was at school - he knows fuck all about education. Do they want to turn out clones of themselves, hypocritical, liars, fraudsters, uncaring buggers who are waging war on the poor, the likes of which we've never seen in the country. Well I am approaching 70 and I've never seen anything like this.

Better stop or I will rant for ever.

Brilliant post there SBS making some very pertinent points about the issue of smacking children. I haven't read any of this Polka person's posts but I don't think I'll bother - might raise my blood pressure!

Thank you Nana.

PS I really want a Nanna, especially right now, think you'd be a great adoptive Nanna.

Smacking makes me feel physically sick. Legitimised child abuse by evil bullies.

All animals 'cuff' their little ones if out of order and so do children themselves, so its good to show them a better way?
Doesn't always work with the under 5's though. And teaching with quick smack can save their lives - eg running out onto a road, touching hot things, staying somewhere safe while you drain boiling veg etc. because not everyone has a safe kitchen/ home to work in so environment, age and resources all come into it. This makes generalisations obselete.
Theres a difference though - smacking is for the childs sake, physical abuse is a gratuitous violence that ignores the childs welfare. Discipline won't break a child's spirit, but not caring about a child will.
Maybe it should be a loving parents choice, not a rule.

if you are a creative enough parent you can come up with plenty of non-physical punishments to teach children the consequences of their actions/disobedience etc.

and there are ways to physically hurt children that can be much worse or more dangerous than say a smack on the bottom as they will not show on the skin (I will not give people ideas of what these are) and some creative people will find a way to do this too

while people disagree about smacking, I don't think many people agree with hitting/beating. or at least no-one I know does.

some people think they are different things, some people think they are the same - I find that very interesting

I don't think it's enough to tell a child not to do something over and over, and punish each time. You have to remove the child and find some distraction. Failing that, you remove the thing they are engaging with that is attracting them. It takes creativity and more effort and time than you might think you have, but there are always alternatives to spanking.

If you feel like hitting something go and punch a pillow or take a timeout for yourself and tell the kids what you are doing and why. Nothing like leading by example. Use your words. Count to ten. Keep your hands to yourself. This is the stuff we tell our DCs, right?
Stay one step ahead of your children and try to anticipate rather than react

from the Oxford Dictionary:

definition of a smack (noun): "a sharp slap or blow, typically one given with the palm of the hand and as a punishment"

definition of hit (verb): " bring one?s hand or a tool or weapon into contact with (someone or something) quickly and forcefully".

in a criminal sense there's a huge difference between smack and hit, because the latter includes the use of a tool or a weapon and it describes the action to be forceful.

Based on these definitions it would be incorrect to say that a slap on the bottom is hitting.
It would be equally incorrect to say that two boxers in the ring are smacking each other.

sorry, acidentally copied noun for one, verb for the other. makes no difference IMO

I think for a smack to matter it would be by definition too hard. I have very occasionally smacked my children, but they laughed. It was obviously a little tap, which they found funny.

For a smack to actually work on my kids I would have to belt them hard, which would obviously stray into the beating category.

I remember my dad smacking me, it really did hurt and left a mark, he was a twat and shouldn't have done that, my Mum was devastated when she got home.

I was hit as a child and that's why I would never hit mine.

Hitting a child in temper is vile and coldly hitting one as a punishment is worse.

I do discipline my child, I do show her the consequences of things, but when she was going through the hitting stage, it really helped to bring the message home that no one hits her so she shouldn't hit other people.

I haven't got time to read all the posts just now, got as far as nanas which I totally agree with.
Smacking, hitting, tapping whatever way you dress it up or down its wrong and no one should be smacked. It's not a last resort. It's all about power and control - and teaching kids if no one does what you want smacking is acceptable is idiotic.
In times of stress with my dc I tell myself silently I am older, wiser and surely capable of keeping mentally one step ahead of a toddler and a 5 year old.

When smacking doesn't work, what next ? A belt? And what about when your teenage someone daughter is suddenly bigger than you? Do you really think they will put up with being hit or have any kind of relationship with you as it might end in physical violence from you if they disagree?

Have to read all the posts later.

amazingmumof6

For goodness sake, quibbling over semantics is pathetic. To give someone "a sharp slap or blow" is to "hit" them, even using your Oxford Dictionary definitions.

And you talk of criminal definitions. What about the moral imperative? To teach our children by demonstration that it is not ok to hit another beacuse they are doing something you don't like.

What the hell are the smackers children doing that is so bad that it warrants a slap? And please enough of the running into the road, fingers in electric sockets hogwash! They've irritated you in some way, you've lost your rag and you've given them a slap.

And just as an aside - my mother hit us when she was angry, frustrated, tired. She had lost control. It was wrong and it did do me harm. I do not trust her.

And those of you hitting in this "controlled" way you talk about? Hitting a child, a young child, in a "controlled, calm" way, shows such a lack of empathy that it can only be damaging in the long term.

Do what you can live with - it's your choice as parents - but the attempts at justifying hitting, by implying that those of us who don't hit have badly behaved children running riot, are truly ludicrous.

Now off to wake the DS. He'll resist, drag his feet, question me and sulk, like he does every Monday morning. It irritates the hell out of me - perhaps I should give him a quick slap?

should be smackers' children - just in case the apostophe police are awake!

I have smacked my older dc on the bottom when they have walked out in front of cars or got themselves into danger, but i can count that on one hand.

I don't see smacking a good thing to chastise everyday, run of the mill, bad behaviour.

Why are the tories getting involved in this too??
And i can't see this tory person being there much of his childrens lifes!
I bet my bottom dollar they were in boarding school & got smacked at weekends.
I wouldn't smack the

I would like to enter the ballstoit and star debate:-
"My children wouldn't get to 334 times of doing something I didn't want them to because I would look at why they were behaving that way and sort it."

I have this problem. There are a few things thta ds1(9) does, thtas drive me literally nutty. I have thought about why he does it,many times. And am none-the-wiser. I have talked to him about it. Explained why it makes me so cross. Asked him why he does it. He says "I don't know". I have asked him (and other people- my mum, freinds, teachers, senco) what he thinks we could do to stop this. No one has any suggestions.

Makes for miserable parenting.

I'm sure we all want to hit them, but really its wrong. Children are small, weak and unable to defend themselves.

I teach my children not to hit so i have to find ways to show them alternatives to hitting.

My parents hit us and often threatened us with hitting. Doesn't give me much respect for them. Didn't help me build up alternative ways to deal with things. Just made me resent them.

I always tell my children that there is never any excuse for physical violence and that use of it often escalates situations. Therefore I don't believe in smacking, although I will admit to having resorted to it once or twice when they were very small out of sheer frustration - which is, of course, absolutely the worst way possible to use smacking. It left me feeling very ashamed and while it did stop them doing what they were doing, I then had to deal with very upset children, so it was completely counterproductive.

Children are not adults, so I don't think the same arguments about physical force really apply. One expects a reasonable adult to be reasonable with. Children can be very unreasonable, and it is often impossible to reason with them when in the throes of a tantrum/display of wilfulness. However, I always think the best parenting is by example, and if I show my children that I resort to violence when I've run out of ideas, I am modelling that as an acceptable behaviour. How can I then condemn when they bash each other? Use of smacking IMO, loses the moral high ground.

I found a playpen very good when they were very small, followed by a time out when they were older. For those whose children won't stay in time out or climb, or whatever, I think it's helpful to recognise that withdrawing attention doesn't mean leaving them on their own. Sometimes you have to return a child to the naughty step umpteen times to get them to 'take' the punishment or stop them climbing. As long as you don't talk to them it's still withdrawing attention.

Also, in a child's head, the action is seen in very different terms. I've often had the 'I don't know' response from DS. Once he's calm I always talk to him about his behaviour and try to establish why he did what he did. If he doesn't know, I suggest reasons to him and try to get to the bottom of it. It's a useful exercise for him - teaching him how to understand his own emotions and hopefully contributing to a greater degree of self-awareness when he's an adult.

With DD, who shows a much greater degree of self awareness, it's more about trying to teach empathy for others and why she shouldn't do something because of the effect it has on others.

stoic what do you do if the child doesn't care about the imposed consequence and continually repeats the misbehaviour in question?

I don't understand all these people advocating smacking toddlers and preschoolers for what is basically age appropriate behavior.

If your toddler likes to climb, take them somewhere they can climb and move the furniture around at home so it is safe/inaccessible.

Your child wants to touch everything in a shop - distract them, shop online, do something else.

Your child keeps opening the freezer? Use duct tape and then go out and get a frige lock.

All children will grow out of these behaviours, just like they grow to have self control over their bowel movements etc...

There isn't a straight line between toddler defiance and temper tantrums and teenage delinquency!

In a material society where children have lots of stuff/toys opportunities for outings it's easy to remove one or some of these things as punishment.

If however removing the only outing of the week/month means that no-one in the family gets to go (no babysitting available), or there are no toys left because your child just doesn't care that much about them and is happy to deconstruct your house instead, (and is also the kind of child for whom "naughty steps" and the like are a waste of time for all concerned). What does one do?

It's interesting isn't it, how we have only stopped smacking generally as a society when there are materialistic sanctions available. What lesson are we really teaching? How do families in places where there is absolute poverty replicate this lesson?

himalaya sorry, your examples do not teach a child anything and they are highly unrealistic! children need to understand the meaning of "no"!

in your world if I the oven gets hot and a child wants to touch it I should not use the oven? or get a takeway?

if they want to draw on the wall shall I knock the walls down?

if they snatch toys shall I remove the other child?

if they have a tantrum when they don't want to do homework shall I stop sending them to school?

when it comes to teaching a child right from wrong you can not solve a problem by pretending it doesn't exist!

If they want to touch a hot oven I wouldn't let them in the kitchen when the oven is hot, until they're old enough to understand what 'that would hurt' means.

If they want to draw on the wall, don't remove the wall, remove the pen. Supervise them when drawing.

If they snatch toys, remove your child.

If they don't do their homework, let them face consequences at school if necessary.

Is this really rocket science?

Responding to "amazingmum":

Oven gets hot: both of mine learn that it's hot and stay away. Even my 14 month old knows the hot sign. If I need to open the oven, she goes in the high chair and ds (3.4) knows now to stand away. No smacking ever needed.

Draw on the walls: crayons and pens stay in one room. I show them how and where to draw and where to put them back. Result: walls only been drawn on once when the pens were out of that room (my fault).

Snatch toys: toy is taken back (why remove the other child?!!!) and they are told what they should do if they want the toy. Either swap for something else or play with something else.

A tantrum? Maybe they're hungry/tired. Have a think about what they might be feeling. If its just a strop, ignore and come back to it. Or leave them - they can go to school and learn the consequences.

Quite frankly why on earth would you hit in those circumstances? Engage brain first and deal with it.