I don't know one single reason why Scotland would want to quit the UK

[ClementineKelandra]

I'm genuinely interested in the reasons why Scotland want to break away from the UK. I'm sure there must be many good ones but I jyst can't see any atm.

Mirry2 how is gaining the right to govern our own country by politicians we have elected "sentimental"??

Er, scarlettCrobones, do you watch the news? Do you see the Greeks and Spanish rioting? Because that's Europe.

At present, we DO govern our own country and elect our politicians. Scotland has far more representation than, say, areas of the north of England where there isn't a Tory in sight. We have a massive influence from local council, Scottish Government, Westminster. Then through being in the UK we have significant voice in Europe - a voice we would find reduced if we go it alone. And of course we would have zero influence over whichever of the Euro or Sterling we ended up with.

You know that Scottish politicians have more influence in England than English politicians do in Scotland?

A huge majority of people I know want independence. And as others have pointed out and I am going to say AGAIN, you do NOT need to be an SNP supporter to want independence.Alex Salmond only brought this about and will steer the good ship Scotland into independence if the vote is yes. In 2016 it will be vote time again and you can vote for who you like.

And how an independent Scotland will look in the future will be up to the people that live there :)

"Most people I know are unenthusiastic about the mechanics of separating, and think that the costs will be significant and outweighs the benefits. "

Also, this is absolutely ridiculous and short-sighted! You are talking about a potential decision that would influence the life of my 7 month old DD and hopefully of many generations to come.

To reduce it to this greengrocer "Profit & Loss" outlook is just pedestrian.

i feel for England, i really do... particularly the northerners, with whom i think we feel a general kinship. but we mustn't let that stymie us from pursuing our own path.

I know, we should be thankful for that, it should be good enough to have some say over our destiny - add that to the list, Scots are most ungrateful, I find!

"We'd be zero in Europe!"

Send the memo to Austria, Belgium, Denmark - they are TOO SMALL to count, in fact they are TOO SMALL to be a country.

Actually, I don't think I said we'd be zero in Europe because we're small. We'd be zero because our position of leverage is so weak. Hope that helps - it's always in the detail!

I think you'll find 'Profit & Loss' will affect your DD, Poppy. It might not look so 'pedestrian' when it's affecting her prospects and quality of life.

Really? Please define "leverage" in the European Union context when compared to countries like Austria, Belgium or Denmark.

Explain exactly how much "leverage" Scotland has right now when it comes to their (not the UK's) fishing and agricultural quotas, for example?

I agree that the system as it stands is ridiculous.
I don't believe that Scottish mps should ever vote on English affairs ,look at the university fees fiasco.
Utterly unfair and should we reject independence I think we should still have a stronger Scottish Parliament, with no say in anything that only affects England.
It's all so complicated isn't it?

atch Why are you getting so wound up? I am allowed my point of view and you are allowed to rubbish it. I really don't mind

Sorry I haven't read the whole thread so don't know if I'm repeating things but here goes.
I'm English, live in the North and have done all my life. I see the whole thing about not wanting to be governed by a Southern focussed Westminster because that's generally my opinion too. I also (although I'm not really old enough to remember) think that the Labour party becoming a much more 'Conservative' party has not helped matters as I believe that they stopped being the party that 'Northerners and Scots' could get behind to represent them.
One thing that does bother me is why the rest of Britain get no say in this.. I get that you wouldn't want Scotland to decide they want independence but not get it because 'Britain' had voted no, however what if Scotland votes no to independence? Do we then as Britain get the chance to say actually we want you out? I genuinely am not being antagonistic (I don't think I would vote this way) but I see a lot benefits that Scottish people get (through devolved powers i.e. prescriptions university etc) that English people don't and yet we all pay the same taxes to the same place (I think). Maybe English people (particularly Northerners who don't benefit from the South centric 'English' policies) woud like to say actually we don't want to be 'Britain' anymore?

lol. 'why are you getting so wound up? i don't mind, I'm very reasonable and you're not... '

i mean if that isn't gaslighting..?

PS i'm not wound up. i'm sceptical that your opinion is based on anything other than prejudice on your part.

agree that this is totally tricky for northerners and welsh, particularly the welsh.

the thing about the prescriptions is a red herring, though, that was a sensible decision by the SP iirc because administering the payment of prescriptions was actually costing as much as it would do just to forget about them. you need to find out if the same is happening in england and petition westminster to ditch the charges if so.

Ah good point Aitch, have to say I don't know enough about any of this but my only standpoint as an English person who loves Scotland (and will be spending Christmas and New Year there) is a sentimental one; I'd prefer there not to be a split, I think particularly because I'm Northern it matters more than if this were Wales or Northern Ireland.

OneMoreChap What exactly does being a higher rate taxpayer have to do with the price of cheese? I may not be, but my husband is. Because you're a higher rate tax payer, your opinion is more valid? He also believes we shouldn't leave - is that more acceptable to you, you both being on an equal footing in monetary terms?

Bully for you, getting to vote. I'm sure you have an excellent understanding of everything Scottish because you live there, better than I, because despite my heritage, I live beyond the border.

To join in the growing trend:

(Previously) Central Belt
Middle Class
Degree in both Scots and English Law
English grand-parent.

I'm only in England because my industry doesn't have any foothold in Scotland. If it did, we would move home in a heartbeat.

I 100% believe that Scotland uses it's money more effectively, i.e. free prescriptions etc. But that doesn't mean we should break away from the UK. Wales (my current residence) seems to have many of the same policies, and I don't hear them wanting to leave the Union.

Aitch be quiet, you clearly don't move in the "same circles" as these people.

atch what do you mean by gaslghting?

i mean that abusive behaviour where one partner asserts power over another by continually expressing a lack of faith in their abilities, by undermining them, and by, when challenged, saying things like 'why are you being so hysterical about this, look how calm i am'... and so on and so on, ever downwards.

Poppy, I think it's been you and Aitch who've been most invested in the social circle thing. Up until you both started saying how professional your circles were everyone had just been saying 'well, the people I know think x'

I will not be voting for independace. It's a terrible idea, we would not be able to support ourselves in the long run. I don't think many people will vote independence unless Braveheart is on tv just before voting day and everyone turns into "FREEDOOOM!!" Mode

Higher rate tax-payer is shorthand for I already pay a lot of tax, and am happy to pay more, as I expect to when Scotland becomes independent.

Wales is but a Principality and had been for centuries longer. The Union of the Crowns is all very well but the Act of Union is what I would like to see undone.

You chose where you live; I chose where I live.
Mine will be a country, in which I take citizenship. Yours won't.

It's our choice...

arf, Poppy.

i just wish we could trust someone, anyone for the real story on this. i can't take www.yesscotland.com a whole lot more seriously than www.yesunion.com or whatever. but it does seem to me like the media as a whole is very much pro-union.

and like i say, if it's true about the embra agreement and the financial negotiations then it will be impossible to vote yes.

Actually, I think you'll find I haven't mentioned "my social circles" at all, ever.

"No-one in my social group wants to separate so I think it does depend on which circles you move in."

You were the one who introduced that particular subject, Sundae - Aitch just replied to that.

Except, Sundae, that's just completely untrue. You were the one who brought up social circles. " No-one in my social group wants to separate so I think it does depend on which circles you move in." i merely asked who you thought that group was.

christ, if we can't even expect faithful reporting on the same thread... what chance do we have of getting the straight dope from the press?

I know, Aitch.

I'm just fervently hoping all the intricacies will be seriously discussed in the next 2 years.

Gaslighting