I don't know one single reason why Scotland would want to quit the UK

[ClementineKelandra]

I'm genuinely interested in the reasons why Scotland want to break away from the UK. I'm sure there must be many good ones but I jyst can't see any atm.

Yes. I think you have to look at the fundamentals. We might have a bit less cash, we might have a bit more. We will probably be fine, in all eventuality.

But, if we're not happy, we can vote to change it. And right now my vote is worth 0.4 of a vote. If Scotland were independent I could have a whole one.

So what I am saying is that unless we get the information we need to make an informed choice, we will just have to vote on principle.

For me, that would go like this:

Would there be more democracy if Scotland were independent? Clearly, yes. (But there would still be Salmond and Trump and cronyism to contend with).

Would we get a fairer society? Yes, for a few years, I think we would, because whichever party was voted in would know that independence was won mainly because the people in Scotland were sickened by English Tory policies to rob the poor to pay the rich.

Would we become more nationalistic? Yes. And I hate that. To me, nationalism is so near to racism it's almost indistiguishable.

And have we got better things to spend our money on? Yes.

To me, your first two points are key issues Solopower1

I used to fear "nationalism" in the way that you do (which is why I made such a point of saying "je suis britannique et ecossaise" when I lived in France). Now I'm not so sure. I don't see it as racist to say I am proud to be Scottish. Doesn't mean that I hate the English - any more that saying I am proud to be a female makes me a man-hater.

Your final point is valid - but we did vote in the SNP with a manifesto commitment to hold a referendum in the latter part of their term. Unless you'd prefer that politicians didn't follow through on their election promises?!

No - I suppose I don't mind having a referendum. At least it's more democratic than not having one. And as you say, it's what people want.

I'd be happier, though, if the parties could be prevented from politicking or if we could have a nice simple ten-point list of pros and cons compiled by someone with no axe to grind, or even if we had an oracle we could consult. It's the burden of choice, having to make up my own mind about something.

Failing that, this thread and others on here at least get us discussing the issues.

The nationalism thing is about more than just saying 'I'm proud to be Scottish', though I don't really understand that, either tbh.

The sort of thing I'm thinking about is the prospective employer who doesn't like your English accent; the petty bullying that goes on in school or club football teams when they find out your mother's from England; the landlord who raises your rent as soon as he hears your dulcet tones on the phone; the benefits office person or receptionist or policeman who takes an instant dislike to you for the same reason. That sort of thing.

But that goes on now. No reason to think it would get worse or better in an independent Scotland.

Bitter, moi?

And, fwiw, in general, I don't think Scottish people are naturally particularly racist at all. In fact, they seem to be much more accepting of difference than many south of the border - though I suppose that's a rather foolish generalisation.

But just watch their hackles rise at a plummy English accent ...

oh but i have a 'naice' scottish accent and i get a lot of that stuff re price raising. same thing happens everywhere with tradesmen.

i don't get the nationalism = racism thing, not at all. i love being scottish in the world, but that doesn't make me feel negatively towards other races or countries. if anything, i think i'd love england all the more if we weren't coupled to it, i really do.

Solo you raise interesting questions, but what you describe in your last post isn't nationalism or even Scottish people being patriotic, it's just people being idiots and, as you say, you can get that anywhere in any circumstances.

I think nationalism is a wholesome, positive thing but sadly the term has been often hijacked by radicals.

I'm Portuguese, married to a Scot and my daughter was born in Scotland - more importantly, after travelling and living abroad for many years we chose to live here.

I can comfortably say I have a nationalistic sense of pride in this country, its people and its culture.

"i love being scottish in the world, but that doesn't make me feel negatively towards other races or countries"

That's exactly it, Aitch.

We all love our own families, but that doesn't mean we hate someone else's.

Mmm, but why would anyone feel proud about something they had no control over, and no say in whatsoever? My parents happened to be in London when I was born. I feel no affinity, no pride, nothing, for London. I've never lived there. To me that sort of patriotism is meaningless. It's pure chance where you are born.

On the other hand, I do love being human.

'We all love our own families, but that doesn't mean we hate someone else's.'

Agreed, Poppy, but we'd all put our own families first, wouldn't we, even if we didn't hate anyone else's. And sometimes that involves giving a job to a nephew, or choosing your cousin's child over someone else's to win the school prize for something. To me it's the same sort of thing. I'll give you a job because you speak/look like I do.

I too am "posh" Scottish - and after a number of years living in England apparently developed an English (or even Northern Irish ?) accent (although I re-acquired my "posh Scottish" accent once I moved back to Glasgow) and have been subject to prejudice and assumptions about my politics and attitudes purely because of my accent. The people who have a problem are those that make those assumptions.

I was teased (would now be called bullying) at primary school because I wasn't "properly" Scottish. I wasn't born in Scotland and I have a foreign sounding, very distinctive surname. But I'd been in Scotland since I was three and as far as I was concerned I was Scottish. I learnt then not to be bothered by what people thought - what I felt was what was important.

We had left a country which was truly racist. Where people who didn't have the right colour of skin didn't get to vote. I was brought up to abhor racism. I don't see the nationalism exhibited in Scotland as in any way comparable. I see it more as a debate about democracy and values - things that are antithesis of racism.

Can't believe I'm quoting Enoch Powell, but there you go...

He once said:
?I believe that, in order to live a full and satisfying life, a man needs to have a picture not only of the community to which he belongs and of his place in it, but also of the place and destiny of that community in the outside world. This is, as it were, the frame of reference within which his life is lived, which gives it? a meaning and a purpose beyond the narrow confines of place and date.

If you care to call this patriotism, so much the better.?

It's great to think of you as part of the "human race" but it's undeniable that your country and its people have helped shape you into the "human" you are today.

I also think it's not necessarily connected to where you born, as I mentioned in my previous post.

oh i see what you mean re being born in a place, that's not particularly meaningful. but my heritage is scottish/irish, my culture catholic etc and i just like it, there's much to be proud of in my family. Big Keir Hardie-loving, union-forming folks, collective responsibility, that sort of thing. not exclusive to scotland, of course, but certainly part of our tradition.

"I see it more as a debate about democracy and values - things that are antithesis of racism."

Very well said, pretty.

Live in large town
Scot married to a Scot
MA in Politics
Work in Public Sector

Will be a yes from me, DH, DD and all of our friends.

Hi Katie - do you mind if I ask what are the principal reasons you're voting yes?

My ds loves that as part of his heritage he can claim a connection to the country where I was born. But it doesn't make him feel any less Scottish.

My parents, who made the choice to emigrate here, felt/feel Scottish because they wanted to be Scottish. That's "good" nationalism. Nationalism that borders on racism is when you're not allowed to be [a particular nationality] because you don't fulfill some arbitary "rules" - and are simultaneously hated or discriminated against because you are not [a particular nationality].

I choose to be Scottish. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy visiting the country of my birth and feeling an affinity with it when I do (despite its problems) - but I love coming home to Scotland :)

I don't really understand what you feel, Prettybird, although I'm glad you are happy where you live . I have lived overseas too, for several years, but never felt it was home. I've never wanted to change nationality.

For me, home is where my family is - I don't really care where that is, although it happens to be in Scotland at the moment.

And Aitch, I really feel I have nothing to be proud - or ashamed of - in my family.

..but I never known the "other" nationality from my perspective - so for me, living in Scotland wasn't living overseas, it was living at home.

I left there when I was three, my parents had no pride in the place, but they loved Scotland. As it happened, my mum happened to have been born in Scotland - by pure chance, as her father was working here during the war. It meant that it was easier for her to bring the family in on "her" passport as it were. (My dad could have claimed a British passport but it would have been long winded as his mother was half German, half English). I then became naturalised British as soon as soon as I could (or rather, my parents did it on my behalf).

Now, when we emigrated to New Zealand in my teens, that was living "overseas", even though it was planned to be a permanent move. It never felt like "home" to my parents, so we came back to Scotland. Politics played a part in that decision: quite apart from the parochialism that they felt (they made the mistake of not going to one of the big relatively speaking cities), the last straw was a general election being fought and won on the basis that the government would sent the All Blacks to play in South Africa with its blessing . They didn't miss their old country - they missed Scotland.

I suppose I'm also used to having family all around the world - and of many different nationalities. Amongst my grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins and 2nd cousins (blood related) I have: Danish, German, English, Australian and South African. I don't love them any less because I am Scottish. :)

The whole question of identity is a really interesting one.

I am technically English, born in England to English parents. I have no Scottish Ancestry at all. I moved to Scotland when I was wee, and was bullied mercilessly in primary school, and half way through secondary (my point of difference being that I was English)

Yet I now love Scotland, it's a great wee country. If I could revoke my British citizenship and get Scottish I would. I want nothing to do with the politics of the Westminster government, they are cruel, short term and text book Tory.

I seem to have most European countries in my ancestry (can trace my father's family/surname back to the 1500s) - with the exception of Scotland

My friends call me a "pedigree mongrel"

Ironically, dh, who claims to be of 100% Scottish ancestry, looks less Scottish than me (although if anything, I look Scandinavian). I swear that there is a shipwrecked Spaniard somewhere in dh's family tree!

Prettybird Lots of dark eyed, Spanish looking men on/from Lewis. There were Spanish sailors shipwrecked there long ago. Your DH may have Highland ancestry?

We think there is some (Northern?) Irish - but definitely the same principle as the "dark" Lewismen!

His and ds' skins are really olive - and dh's eyes are almost black.

...although that would mean he's not the 100% he claim he is