I don't know one single reason why Scotland would want to quit the UK

[ClementineKelandra]

I'm genuinely interested in the reasons why Scotland want to break away from the UK. I'm sure there must be many good ones but I jyst can't see any atm.

No - people decide that they can't afford to pick up their prescriptions - and as a result may end up sicker. Or they may not go to the doctor at all until they're really ill.

That's why the Scottish NHS (and government then legislated) believes that it is more cost effective in the long run to have free prescriptions, once you factor in the cost of administering it (checking whether or not people are eligible for free prescriptions, balancing what has been paid) and the fact that people choose to go to see the doctor earlier and therefore may be able to be treated more cheaply.

I'd call that a good use of public money.

but who is saying that anyone who dares criticise scotland is BAD? who's actually SAYING that? this is all so chippy and weird, i think.

seems to me that broadly speaking the answer to the OP, the one single reason why Scotland as a whole wants to quit the UK, is because we have no chance of having our left wing votes count in the national arena.

what's interesting is that you strike me as more right wing, but if so you under independence you are more likely to be represented locally by a tory than you are under current circumstance, precisely because of the iniquitous national situation.

Prettybird is all of that clinically proven? Or simply adding on one unproven fact to another?

I don't really care that much about prescriptions. I think theres some merit in encouraging people to take individual responsibility for their own health, to some extent. Free prescriptions were always available for those who could not afford to pay. Did pharmacists really have a problem with the admin in their work?

But god forbid that people should go to their doctor before they are really ill, or get a prescription needlessly. Does the NHS really encourage this? Surely theres always a sector of the population who will hold off seeing their doctor, and another sector who will make an appointment at the slightest thing. I doubt treating people as if they are stupid will change that.

I'm sorry, but theres something slightly unconvincing about this. And those behind the policy didn't present it as saving money, but as a money spend "for the benefit of the people of Scotland" and a vote winner for the SNP

I think PoppyAmex has put her finger on it.

BTW I have already mentioned a number of things I don't like about Scotland. It wasn't an exhaustive list. But having lived in many different places, it is still the country I would prefer to be.

When I lived in France, I was always careful to emphasise that I was "brittanique et ecossaise mais pas anglaise" as I was proud of being British. The pride in being British has been squashed (years of Thatcher and then an illegal war in Iraq and the New Tories and I don't mean the Conservative Party ) but I am still proud of being Scottish.

I am still looking for a positive reason for remaining part of the Union.

"Maybe also the talented Scots tend to leave the country? Does anyone think independence and the type of "new Scotland" it would produce would encourage them to stay?"

I'm originally from Portugal and DH and I worked in the US, Israel and Australia. We made a conscious choice to live (and start a family) in Scotland because, like prettybird, it's the country where we prefer to be.

I'm currently on mat leave, but DH's career hasn't suffered at all with the move. even though he works for evil Murdoch

You said: I'm tired of the constant "Scotland is wonderful and anyone who dares criticise it is BAD" nonsense.

Actually I have often found the opposite, especially in the older generation, who have a bizarre inferiority complex when it comes to their Scottish nationality.

I am English living in England. I very much hope that the scots will vote for independence. I do not think it is in the best interests of Scotland - An independent Scotland should be stripped of all military support, the historic regiments and the RAF and Naval Bases. They can sort out their own defence. They would have to rejoin the EU on modern terms and would loose out all the opt-outs negotiated by Thatcher. However, it is nothing but good news for England. Our tax is used to subsidise prescriptions, health and educational services at a higher level in Scotland than in England. An independent Scotland would also equalise representation at Westminster and allow a Conservative Majority Government.

Willstanton yes please. Promise you'll take your nuclear weapons too?

"However, it is nothing but good news for England."
"An independent Scotland would also equalise representation at Westminster and allow a Conservative Majority Government"

Yes, I could tell that your Tory Government is dying to get rid of us, our taxes and our natural resources

we don't need an army... not when we've got Smeato.

Aitch what's interesting is that you strike me as more right wing, but if so you under independence you are more likely to be represented locally by a tory than you are under current circumstance, precisely because of the iniquitous national situation

I don't know if thats really true. I would say I was more right wing, but I'm strongly socialist on some issues. For instance I would rather pay high taxes and have an excellent system of public transport, the NHS and good education. And I do pay my tax and take relatively little from the system. I don't think in a lot of countries I would be considered that right wing really. I just don't make all those left wing statements about it. What I don't believe in is taking in a high tax revenue and wasting the money, and shouting down anyone who dares to speak out, or criticising them for being uncaring, or right wing, or whatever.

I also think there is a real vested interest in left wing circles in having a sector of the population who consider themselves poor and hard done by, but who always vote in a certain way. I also can't see why Scotland still hasn't eradicated poverty when other northern European nations who raise similar levels of tax and have similar advantages have done so. It doesn't make sense.

I also don't think its fair to say the Scots have no influence in UK government at all. In fact they pretty much caused England to have years of Labour government when it voted against it.

My head says no

My heart says "hell, yes"

Not sure which to choose?

if Scotland doesn't join the EU as an independent country, does that mean that the remnants of Britain will no longer accept Scottish economic refugees?

I know an awful lot of Scots here in England because the money up home is crap if you can get a job at all.... (I was born in England raised from age 1 to 18 in Scotland and returned to England as an economic refugee myself...)

Re:free prescriptions - I'd also add there are many people with chronic conditions which require regular meds, such as diabetes, many people on warfarin, statins, thyroxin...

My dad lives in London and had type 2 diabetes controlled with medication and is really concerned about the long term cost of this.In Scotland I think there are many, especially elderly folk, who would just try to 'do without ' to save money and this puts enormous pressure on the already hard pressed emergency services.

Commuting: well this is not a Scottish problem, it is a national one. There are many places in England where transport is poor although the outskirts of London are reasonably well served - once you've paid £2000 for your season ticket. Careful what you wish for...

But it was always possible in Scotland before free prescriptions were introduced to buy a season ticket kind of payment (forget the exact name) for £12 for 12 weeks which would cover all prescription medicines, or similar, if I recall? Do you not have that in England Aboutlastnight?

"What I don't believe in is taking in a high tax revenue and wasting the money, and shouting down anyone who dares to speak out, or criticising them for being uncaring, or right wing, or whatever."

but who would argue this point? who's arguing for wasting money and censorship?

Absolutely. I am also firmly against taking a high tax revenue and wasting the money, shouting down anyone who dares to speak out and criticising them for being uncaring, or right wing.

Down with all of that definitely!

Btw, what are these Northern European nations that have eradicated poverty on tax rates similar to the UK? Genuine question.

Some points:

1.Scotland has always always ALWAYS voted further left than the rest if the uk, so it's fair to say values are different.

2.wtf is a cyber nat? I hear this term bandied about a lot. Is it an snp supporter with a computer?

1. SCOTLAND IS NOT SCROUNGING OFF ENGLAND FFS.

Holland, Germany, Belguim...

Lets not forget to include all taxes that we pay in the UK - income tax, National Insurance and Council Tax. My Council Tax is currently over £200 a month for a 3 bed house.

No bunfight yet? I'll be voting yes. The reason?
I think that people should have the right and the ambition to govern themselves and under the present system Scottish people do not have this right over all matters.
I also don't believe my idea of unity ends at hadrians wall, but nor does it end at Dover. I'm someone who believes in genuine internationalism but can only do this as a fully-fledged country, an equal partner in the community of nations.
That's my 2p worth!

Interesting piece here which analyses the UK elections since 1945.

On only two occasions would the lack of Scottish MPs have changed the result: the second election in 1974, when Wilson would not have got his majority (although it's arguable whether he would even have had the minority government from the earlier election) and there would have been a hung parliament and more recently in 2010, when the Conservatives would have got a majority.

Cybernats are SNP supporters or party members who target people on internet forums and in real life who speak out about SNP policies or independence. So-called after their famous abuse of George Foulks. There have been alleged instances of them sending hate mail, and at the lesser end of the scale, the published exchanges have been very personalised and overly aggressive.

www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/9129998/Welcome-to-planet-Cybernat-where-the-air-is-toxic.html

davidtorrance.com/cybernats-a-scottish-political-phenomenon/

do you think people here are cybernats, lessmissabs?

They all look to have higher tax rates than the UK

I think they might be surprised to be told they'd abolished poverty as well, although granted they're lower down in the table than the UK.

Germany has local income tax as well as national income tax. In fact, all countries have the sort of taxes that the UK has although they might be collected in different ways. Insurance costs for health care, for example, tend to be based on income however they're collected.

Aitch socialism and being left wing surely requires more than an ability to talk a good show and a desire to control people though? And is measured by actions and deeds, not words?

And why do posters such as yourself care so much about putting left wing and right wing labels on people? I'm actually left wing on some issues, right wing on others, and centrist on others. I don't think any party now is consistently right or left wing and wouldn't base my voting patterns on such an identity. Most political parties simply tailor their policies to whatever they think will keep them in power, and that goes for Scotland too.

Sleepyhead You just don't get so many people who admit to being poor and struggling to get by, the constant political debate about "eradicating poverty" and the benefits culture in these countries. And the infrastructure is more indicative of a wealthy country.

The local income tax in Germany cost me less than £100 a year. In practice, I suspect the tax you see disappearing from your pay packet is pretty much the same.

oh, sorry, i was responding to the many, many, many times you mentioned the words 'left wing' ('so-called' or otherwise). i don't tend to speak in those terms myself, in fact i'd be inclined to think that it was the first time i'd used them on this thread. I presumed you were comfortable with them, having used them so often as a pejorative.

so to be clear. i'm not in the slightest bit obsessed with attaching political labels. i'm chatting online to my friend, a Belgian Turk, who is pissing herself laughing at the thought that poverty has been eradicated in her country.