Woman dies in Galway after being denied termination

[AThingInYourLife]

Holy evil pro-life bastards, batman

The wonder is it that there haven't been more

RIP Savita Halappanavar :(

I believe in law abortion is illegal with no exceptions only in two countries in the world: Chile & Ireland

So the clear majority of the world population (if we have to use majority arguments, which I do not really agree with) thinks that a total ban is not a good idea

have only read to page 4 of this thread but i have the horrible feeling that the "this is a catholic country" comment was possibly a dig at the woman and the fact that she was not catholic.

Why Squoosh , or any other Irish on here.
Ireland is a modern country and a member of the Eu.
What is it about Ireland that they can't give the same human rights re abortion as opposed to countries like Italy, the home of the Vatican?

nicknamegrief I don't think we need to be careful before we blame the Irish doctors and politicians. Successive single party and coalition governments have failed since 1992 to legislate for the X case ruling and have ignored European Courts directives to follow Bunreacht na hEireann and put a damn policy in place. This has lead to doctors unwilling to perform almost all abortions, even in cases where the mothers LIFE is at risk because of the risk of criminal prosecution. And now a woman is dead because of it.

nicknamegrief I don't think we need to be careful before we blame the Irish doctors and politicians. Successive single party and coalition governments have failed since 1992 to legislate for the X case ruling and have ignored European Courts directives to follow Bunreacht na hEireann and put a damn policy in place. This has lead to doctors unwilling to perform almost all abortions, even in cases where the mothers LIFE is at risk because of the risk of criminal prosecution. And now a woman is dead because of it.

Actually the United Nations has listed Ireland as one of the countries allowing abortions when the life of the mother is at risk. Here: www.un.org/esa/population/publications/2011abortion/2011wallchart.pdf
Can anybody tell me whether or not real cases (apart from the Court) exist of this? I mean, do you know any abortion due to the risk to the life ofthe mother.

There is no proof that says she would have lived if she had had the termination. She died (so I am lead to believe) because they missed the infection, a termination may not have meant that they caught the infection and she may well have lost her life even then.

Not every politician will have voted for such legislation and not every doctor would be unwilling to, that is my point. Just because the majority rule does not mean we should blame the minority.

I have read - and have been trying to find the article - that being anti abortion is important in Ireland as it's part of the national identity and runs deep. It's part of being Catholic but not just about being Catholic- it's about being an independent republic. It's part of not being English, protestant and very much ingrained within the religious and political DNA. Less about being anti women and more about being pro Irish. It's part of "who we are" if that makes sense.

But I'm not Irish or Catholic and happy to be shot down - it's a vague memory from an article I read years ago.

Theala - no problem! I think this a day for much ranting. I've been frothing at the mouth for hours - and not always coherently!

I think a case of severe medical negligence has been complicated by the fact that the husband has come out and said they requested, and were denied, a termination.

Hanging on and not removing a live foetus is in accordance with the law in Ireland. It is a law many people disagree with, understandably, but it is the law. It is not medically negligent to do this and the chances are the outcome will be painful and awful for the woman (again, a matter of moral, rather than medical, debate) but unproblematic. Savita's life was not in danger when she entered the hospital, and once the infection took hold termination would not have cured it.

However, it is medically negligent not to monitor a woman who has an open cervix, and who has received internal exams, very closely. They should have given her prophylactic antibiotics, or at the very least, done very regular bloods to monitor the risk of infection.

They didn't do this, and as a result a simple EColi infection developed into septicaemia. The infection wasn't discovered until she collapsed. There is no way that should have happened in a modern hospital.

The issue wrt to termination is an incredibly important one, and I do believe she should have been able to have one, in order to spare her the pain of waiting for the baby to die. BUT not having an abortion did not contribute to her death. Medically it doesn't make sense to claim that it did.

Miscarriage is treated appallingly in Irish hospitals - you are basically expected to shut up and get on with it. It could also be the case that Savita was treated carelessly by staff who were annoyed at her foreignness and her repeated requests for abortion. This, of course, is utterly wrong.

But mixing up the abortion issue with her death is only going to muddy the waters. I'm glad people have a fire in their bellies over this. It would be a shame if the whole thing gets bogged down in unfounded accusations.

As others have pointed out there have been multiple referenda on abortion, all resulting in abortion on demand being prohibited. This is the free choice of the people of Ireland. There does need to be solid legislation on the X case but I think abortion is still a long way off for Ireland.

ladybeagle It's an urban rural divide mixed with an immigration problem. Ireland tends to pass the buck on legislation from politicians to the people, so we have lots of referendum on different issues. We had three in 15 years on abortion alone. Anyway, Dublin and other cities (but really just Dublin) votes pro-choice, while rural voters lean more pro-life. Secondly, anybody who can't or won't pt up with this kind of crap gets the hell out of Ireland and moves away. There's millions of Irish in England and I'm writing this from NYC. Eventually, you just can't take any more waiting for your basic human rights in Ireland.

Excellent point CallinDana

LadyBeagleI wish I knew why Ireland clings to its anti abortion views whilst other arguably more socially conservative countries such as Italy and Spain have legalised it. I do think the Catholic Church is most definitely at the root of the matter though. It?s only really been since the mid 90?s that Catholicism has quite rightly had a massive fall from grace following scandal upon scandal upon scandal. Mass attendances are at an all time low and our current Taoiseach doesn?t seem in thrall to the Vatican compared to his predecessors. But historically Ireland has been slow to adopt legalised social change. Divorce as previously mentioned only became legal in Ireland in 1996.

This gives you an idea of the glacial pace at which legalised social change moves in Ireland. I?m not sure if it?s a rural/urban divide, an age divide or something much more complex. The opening of the first Marie Stopes clinic in Belfast can only be a step in the right direction.

Ireland?s abortion laws make me truly ashamed.

"BUT not having an abortion did not contribute to her death."

How can you possibly know this with such certainty? Are you saying that a prolonged 3 day infected miscarriage with a fully dilated cervix ALWAYS has the same outcome as a quickly terminated miscarriage with immediate AB care?

Is there NO circumstance - EVER - where it would be improve the medical outcome for the mother to terminate immediately rather than allow a 3 day miscarriage?

I don't believe you.

...last post addressed to CailinDana.

Moominsarescary - regarding survival after waters braking "that is very very rare, the most likely outcome in cases like this is that the waters have broken too early for the lungs to develope properly..." I know but it can and does happen, equally septecimia is very rare following miscarriage too, but it can still happen.

The doctors were playing with odds of what might happen, infection risk was high and you say "Also if they didn't treat her with abs when her waters broke and a feotus is classed as having the same rights as the mother, the hospital should be charged with neglect and inadequate treatment of both of them" I agree, with this. My friend was not treated with antibiotics, and additionally they made her wait until after she reached 24 weeks until administering steroids to mature the babies lungs, they would not do it even a few hours early! I think that in all later miscarriages where the waters have broken, that antibiotics should be given, and I am confused as to why they always seem to wait til the infection has already taken a hold. This is where I think the mismanagement has occurred along with the stupid comments allegedly made by the doctor regarding it being a Catholic country.

I don't believe it either.

The Medical Council's Ethical Guidelines state that "should a child in utero suffer or lose its life as a side effect of standard medical treatment of the mother, then this is not unethical." These guidelines also state that "refusal by a doctor to treat a woman with a serious illness because she is pregnant would be grounds for complaint and could be considered to be professional misconduct." This is from an Irish Green Paper on maternal mortality in 1999 - don't know whether there's been any more recent guidance that says 'basically, docs, stand aside and let women die'.

cailinDana If you are a doctor, I'd love to hear your defense of the handling of this case. You seem to be privy to information that nobody else is. I'll just wait for either of the actual medical inquiries of this situation.

A wrongful death action will be brought in this case. And the medical team will be found wanting.

It's impossible to know when she picked up the infection. Having an abortion could have made things worse, it's impossible to tell. Either way, abortion does not clear infection, antibiotics do. So saying that abortion would have cured her doesn't make sense.

Plenty of women labour for three days with no waters and an open cervix. That in itself is not a life-threatening position to be in. However, not being monitored for infection in that circumstance is completely wrong - that is what contributed to her death.

I wonder if the doctor who treated Savita attended this symposium.

liveactionnews.org/international/dublin-declaration-abortion-is-not-medically-necessary/

The fact that she was in pain for three days when the baby wasn't viable was awful, just awful, and that is what people should be get het up about. She should have had an abortion, definitely, I do not argue with that at all. However, the infection issue is a separate thing, and claiming that an abortion would have saved her life doesn't make sense at all - there's no medical reason to believe that. What would have saved her life was proper monitoring and the sensible use of antibiotics.

Oh and you can imagine what fun pro-lifers would have had if she had had an abortion, then got an infection and died. Outrage akimbo.