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Woman dies in Galway after being denied termination

999 replies

AThingInYourLife · 14/11/2012 07:07

Holy evil pro-life bastards, batman

The wonder is it that there haven't been more Angry

RIP Savita Halappanavar :(

OP posts:
Buildabetterworld · 14/11/2012 17:03

I had a miscarriage in England and was prescribed antibiotics by the hospital doctors when the miscarriage was confirmed by scan.

juule · 14/11/2012 17:04

I was under the impression that if the waters broke and the baby still hadn't been delivered then abs would be started.

For my mmcs I was told that the sooner the m/c was complete the less risk of infection. I opted for erpc and was given abs after the procedure.

sabine · 14/11/2012 17:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Buildabetterworld · 14/11/2012 17:06

To add, I had a natural miscarriage, no medical management. It went on for two weeks.

5madthings · 14/11/2012 17:07

Generally if a baby isnt delivered withjn 24hrs of waters breaking then labour is induced/speeded up and antibiotics given unless a woman refuses as she has rhe right to do. (term preg obv)

Earlier in preg will depend on viability, the womans requests after 24wks ateroids would be offeted, they would if appropriate try and stop labour to improve odds of baby surviving and this would include precautionary antibiotics.

Before viability like the woman in question they would offer a medically assisted miscarriage if that was what the woman wanted and that would include antibiotics.

Its barbaric that she was left to suffer in this way.

twofingerstoGideon · 14/11/2012 17:07

I only got as far as this on the first page:

I'm anti abortion and even I think this is outrageous. A pointless waste of life. I hope it makes the Irish legislators stop and think.

Well, to the person who wrote that, I hope it makes you stop and think... (along with all the other anti-abortionists*)

*Will not call them 'pro life' for obvious reasons.

verylittlecarrot · 14/11/2012 17:07

I don't know the answer to that Nicknamegrief.

However, the assumption by some is that it was infection and failure to treat that infection with antibiotics that is the only medical issue here. Further, some are arguing that provided antibiotics are used to treat the infection, a swift medically managed miscarriage has NO BENEFIT over allowing a woman to labour for three days.

I want to know the truth about this because I don't know the answer. I want some facts rather than opinions.

Narked · 14/11/2012 17:08

They gave her antibiotics. She was monitored. She showed all the warning signs - chills and fever. They left her to die.

CailinDana · 14/11/2012 17:08

"And in the UK women are OFFERED a choice of induction or expectant management if their waters break but they don't go into labour. The NHS may not be perfect, but it doesn't deliberately leave women to die."

I don't really understand this paragraph edam. Do you believe Savita was "deliberately left to die"?

Women in Ireland are also offered induction if their waters break. I'm not sure what your point is here either.

sabine · 14/11/2012 17:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CailinDana · 14/11/2012 17:10

Narked - they gave her antibiotics too late, after the infection had developed. "They left her to die" - could you explain that?

5madthings · 14/11/2012 17:10

By performing the abortion they would be dealing with the source if the infection and in conjunction with antibiotics that would have given her a better chance at fighting the infection?

Moominsarescary · 14/11/2012 17:10

Ds2 waters broke at 35 weeks cervix was closed. labour started 5 days later, I had 2 days of iv antibiotics and was on oral abs the rest of the time. Tests on the placenta showed signs of infection probably because the waters had been gone for so long

Ds3 waters broke at 31 weeks, cervix closed. Was born 6 days later. Abs given again and placenta showing signs of infection probably due to waters breaking so long before.

Ds4 waters broke 18+4 cervix open. induced at 19+6 no infection found.

Pm can show how advanced infection was and abs given straight after waters breaking help to prevent it from happening, or getting worse. It should be standed procedure.

nailak · 14/11/2012 17:11

I know women who have had miscarried and chosen natural option, it has taken up to 6 weeks in some cases to complete miscarriage, was that dangerous? should they have been on antibiotics? My friend did mention she had regular monitoring when she was going through this.

they were not made to labour for 3 days but they chose to.

galwaygal · 14/11/2012 17:12

verylittlecarrot - how if the infection was there three days previously would having a termination have prevented the infection from progressing? It would be the administration of antibiotics following termination that would have dealt with the infection, not the termination itself.

Using terms like EVER and ALWAYS are very strong; The antibiotics given at an appropriate time might have saved both mother and child theoretically, it would be impossible to state categorically that it would NEVER occur. In this case it could be argued that it would be a better outcome than the then unnecessary termination a wanted pregnancy. There are so many different possible outcomes. EVER and NEVER can be used to argue them all, there are exceptions to the rules in most situations.

The miscarriage became inevitable when the feotus died, prior to that it was still a threatened miscarriage. The likelihood for the survival of the feotus was always small but the lack of treatment of the infection was the probrable cause of death for both mother and child. You seem to be saying that the live feotus was causing the infection, it was the open cervix that was causing the infection, not the feotus.

There are two different situations: 1) where a feotus has died and a miscarriage is allowed to be prolonged, compared to 2) a live feotus and prolonged threatened miscarriage. These two situations receive different treatments and should be treated on a case by case situation.

CailinDana · 14/11/2012 17:14

Nailak - that's what I mean when I say Savita wasn't in a life-threatening situation. It was awful, and horrible, and shouldn't have happened, but her life wasn't in danger. It was only when the infection developed that she was in danger and at that stage having an abortion wouldn't have made a difference.

verylittlecarrot · 14/11/2012 17:14

Nicknamegrief, When I was in labour at 37 weeks after my waters broke I was pressurised to deliver quickly after 24 hours to reduce the risk of infection. The emphasis was on a quick delivery rather than on antibiotics. I'm not extrapolating from this, though. I'd still prefer to know what the safest approach is deemed to be medically.

Nicknamegrief · 14/11/2012 17:14

Thank you for answering verylittlecarrot.

I opted for medical management but have a friend who didn't. I carry around guilt that I ended it (although there was no heartbeat) while my friend doesn't. This of course is my experience and even I can see that my guilt is not really rationale.

As for the antibiotics thing, antibiotics are not perfect and they do not always work especially if they are given too late. Sadly I lost a friend this year who died following an infection she got during labour/birth. It was discovered too late and it takes time to get find out exactly what the infection is to use targeted antibiotics.

It is a very sad case.

Mixxy · 14/11/2012 17:16

cailinDana A post mortem infection won't show how and when she picked the infection up.

Not always, but medical experts will give evidence at the inquiry. The issue of 'foreseeability', (important legally to a wrongful death case and quantifiably knowable in mathematical probability) will bury the medical team.

sabine · 14/11/2012 17:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

camaleon · 14/11/2012 17:16

Cailin,
Yes, from what we know is not that difficult to conclude that Savita was left to die. An informed decision was made about her medical treatment,ignoring her wishes and perhaps treating her very badly.
I am finding incredible the comparisons you are making. This was not a normal 'every woman breaking waters' scenario. This was someone in pain and distress, enough to kill her actually.
If the account of the husband reported above are confirmed, she was clearly neglected and left to die.

Moominsarescary · 14/11/2012 17:17

Women whos waters break prematurely are not offered induction unless the baby shows signs of distress/ infection. They don't like to induce before 37 weeks. Except in certain circumstances.

At 20 weeks an induction due to waters breaking is classed as a termination due to medical reasons. She didn't have this choice!

camaleon · 14/11/2012 17:20

Really Cailin, how do you know that what you are saying is reflecting facts.
knowing the outcome I cannot believe that you can happily state that : 'Savita wasn't in a life-threatening situation'

CailinDana · 14/11/2012 17:20

The pain and distress didn't kill her camaleon - infection did.

She wasn't given an abortion because in Ireland abortion is illegal.

She wasn't monitored for infection - that is medical negligence.

I don't agree that she was "left to die" - because that implies she was put in a room and ignored, but I do think she wasn't given adequate medical care.

verylittlecarrot · 14/11/2012 17:20

galwaygal - it isn't a case of EITHER the antibiotics OR the termination. You write "how if the infection was there three days previously would having a termination have prevented the infection from progressing? It would be the administration of antibiotics following termination that would have dealt with the infection, not the termination itself."

Well exactly!

a. Termination on day 1 with immediate antibiotics is better than b. allow infection to progress for 3 days then terminate, then treat.

Don't you agree with this?

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