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Exposure, newsnight etc discussion part 2

995 replies

MrsjREwing · 09/11/2012 19:05

Last thread full.

Steve has released a statement responding to Lord McAlpines statement.

OP posts:
Xenia · 11/11/2012 17:38

Yes he was indeed. I certainly agree that those who come forward to disclose abuse should be listened to. The problem seems to be in some cases obtaining enough evidence to make a conviction possible although we have had quite a few successful prosecutions. I don't think the position is totally hopeless at all.

Darkesteyes · 11/11/2012 17:40

1857252241

ISBN 13:

9781857252248

Publisher:

TIMEWELL PRESS

Pub. date:

3 April, 2008

Pages:

256

Description:

Born in 1937, Wilfred De'Ath's outwardly conventional early life in suburban London was dominated by the overpowering puritanism and fanatical patriotism of his mother, the daughter of a German pastor. In the De'Ath household Hitler was idolised and every German victory heartily celebrated. This is a memoir by England's best-loved reprobate.

Synopsis:

Born in 1937, Wilfred De'Ath's outwardly conventional early life in suburban London was dominated by the overpowering puritanism and fanatical patriotism of his mother, the daughter of a German pastor. In the De'Ath household Hitler was idolised and every German victory heartily celebrated. On shopping expeditions with his mother during the Blitz, young Wilfred had to endure the spectacle of his mother giving Nazi salutes and shouting 'Heil Hitler!' to her friend and compatriot, Mrs Maybury.This singular upbringing may account for De'Ath's subsequent ill treatment of his own family and the abandonment of a charmed career in journalism which brought him much acclaim for his interviews with figures as diverse as Mick Jagger, Margaret Thatcher, John Lennon, PG Wodehouse and the Archbishop of Canterbury and as a ground-breaking radio and television producer (one of his discoveries was Kenny Everett). Instead he chose a life of vagrancy and petty crime - totting up ten years behind bars in the process - not to mention his lifelong twin obsessions with sex and religion.A self-confessed voyeur who was recruited by MI5 to befriend a Russian spy at an orgy, De'Ath was a sexual predator whose victims included Susanna York, Sarah Miles, Julie Christie, Julia Foster and Charlotte Rampling.A godless but enthusiastic churchgoer, he made a career out of exposing the peccadilloes of Anglican clergymen in Private Eye, whose editor, his Oxford contemporary Richard Ingrams, later commissioned a long-running column in the Oldie retailing his experiences at the hands of plodding policemen, mad magistrates, crazy criminals and sadistic screws. In "Uncommon Criminal", an unrepentant sinner looks back at his deplorable but colourful life with a candour bordering on relish which will disgust and delight in equal measure.

bananaistheanswer · 11/11/2012 18:01

This is something that bothers me about this 'unreliable' witness tag SM has. He had been awarded at least £40k in compensation for the abuse he suffered so he was reliable enough to be believed that he was abused, with medical evidence to support the suffering he's endured. So the 'what' and 'how' is considered reliable enough to warrant a significant award in compensation. But when it comes to the 'who' 'when' 'where' his evidence is too unreliable to even investigate his allegations? When he provides photos that could go some way to establishing some of the 'who' which could clear up some of the 'unreliable' aspects of his evidence, those are ordered to be destroyed?

I think it's one thing to discredit someone, it's another entirely to dismiss the credibility that does exist and supports the unreliable aspects of someone's allegations.

The whole thing in rotten to the core IMO.

FiercePanda · 11/11/2012 18:13

An examination of the Daily Fail's smearing of Steven Messham is here, and damn right it is too.

How are other victims of abuse meant to feel able to come forward when THIS is what they're facing?

Feenie · 11/11/2012 18:19

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Mrcrumpswife · 11/11/2012 18:24

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Abra1d · 11/11/2012 18:32

'"As for McAlpine, if the man had any sense of decency and honour (which de facto as a Tory scumbag he doesn?t), he?d be hiding in shame at his relative?s perverted acts instead of threatening to sue."

Too bloody right.'

OFGS.

Why should he be 'hiding in shame'? Do we even know how close a kinship it is? My aunt's husband raped two of her nephews (my cousins). Does that mean I should be hiding in shame, too?

dapplegrey · 11/11/2012 18:34

Feenie - is Lord M's relative definitely guilty of abuse?
If it was a Labour politician who was mistakenly accused of a crime which had in fact been carried out by a relative, do you think he should hide his head in shame and not sue for defamation?

FiercePanda · 11/11/2012 18:34

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VivaLeBeaver · 11/11/2012 18:34

But is it actually a relative of his? All his relatives will be suing next?

Can Mcalpine really sue Sally Bercow? She tweeted "why's McAlpine trending, innocent face"

Surely she can argue that it was a genuine question? Would be hard to prove otherwise. Hmm

chipstick10 · 11/11/2012 18:37

Why is it fair game to call someone a Tory scumbag!.

Abra1d · 11/11/2012 18:43

Lord M is right to threaten Sally B and George Monbiot. As far as I can see none of the heavies have mentioned him suing SM. Yesterday (or Friday) Lord M actually sounded quite measured in his statement about SM, saying he appreciated that he had been through an awful experience as a child.

Where has this suing of SM by LM come from?

Xenia · 11/11/2012 18:44

Lord M's relative was very keen on women. It is extremely unlikely he was involved with boys. Sadly he is dead so not in a position to defend himself.

Here is McAlpine's statement it is a very well worded and kind statement which shows huge sympathies for victims. This is not a party political issue.

Over the last several days it has become apparent to me that a number of ill- or uninformed commentators have been using blogs and other internet media outlets to accuse me of being the senior Conservative party figure from the days of Margaret Thatcher's leadership who is guilty of sexually abusing young residents of a children's home in Wrexham, north Wales, in the 1970s and 1980s.

It has additionally become apparent to me that a number of broadcasters and newspapers have, without expressly naming me, also been alleging that a senior Conservative party figure from that time was guilty of or suspected of being guilty of the sexual abuse of residents of this children's home.

It is obvious that there must be a substantial number of people who saw that I had been identified in the internet publications as this guilty man and who subsequently saw or heard the broadcasts or read the newspapers in question and reasonably inferred that the allegation of guilt in those broadcasts and newspapers attached to me.

Even though these allegations made of me by implication in the broadcast and print media, and made directly about me on the internet, are wholly false and seriously defamatory I can no longer expect the broadcast and print media to maintain their policy of defaming me only by innuendo.

There is a media frenzy and I have to expect that an editor will soon come under pressure to risk naming me. My name and the allegations are for all practical purposes linked and in the public domain and I cannot rewind the clock.

I therefore have decided that in order to mitigate, if only to some small extent, the damage to my reputation I must publicly tackle these slurs and set the record straight. In doing so I am by no means giving up my right to sue those who have defamed me in the recent past or who may do so in the future and I expressly reserve my rights to take all such steps as I and my solicitors consider necessary to protect my interests.

On Tuesday 6 November the home secretary, the Rt Hon Theresa May MP, made a statement in the House of Commons about the historic allegations of child abuse in the North Wales police force area. She explained that in 1991, North Wales police conducted an investigation into allegations that, throughout the 1970s and 1980s, children in homes that were managed and supervised by Clwyd county council were sexually and physically abused. The result of the police investigation was eight prosecutions and seven convictions of former care workers. Despite the investigation and convictions, it was widely believed, she said, that the abuse was in fact on a far greater scale, but a report produced by Clwyd council's own inquiry was never published, because so much of its content was considered by lawyers to be defamatory.

In 1996, the Rt Hon William Hague MP, the then secretary of state for Wales, invited Sir Ronald Waterhouse to lead an inquiry into the abuse of children in care in the Gwynedd and Clwyd council areas. Mrs May told the House of Commons that the Waterhouse inquiry sat for 203 days and heard evidence from more than 650 people. Statements made to the inquiry named more than 80 people as child abusers, many of whom were care workers or teachers. In 2000, the inquiry's report Lost in Care made 72 recommendations for changes to the way in which children in care were protected by councils, social services and the police. Following the report's publications, 140 compensation claims were settled on behalf of the victims.

Mrs May further said that the report found no evidence of a paedophile ring beyond the care system, which was the basis of the rumours that followed the original police investigation and, indeed, one of the allegations made in the past week. Last Friday, a victim of sexual abuse at one of the homes named in the report ? Mr Steve Messham ? alleged that the inquiry did not look at abuse outside care homes, and he renewed allegations against the police and several individuals. I am, as is now well known to readers of the internet and to journalists working for the print and broadcast media, one of the individuals implicated by Mr Messham.

I have every sympathy for Mr Messham and for the many other young people who were sexually abused when they were residents of the children's home in Wrexham. Any abuse of children is abhorrent but the sexual abuse to which these vulnerable children were subjected in the 1970s and 1980s is particularly abhorrent. They had every right to expect to be protected and cared for by those who were responsible for them and it is abundantly clear that they were horribly violated. I have absolutely no sympathy for the adults who committed these crimes. Those who have been convicted were deservedly punished and those who have not yet been brought to justice should be as soon as possible.

The facts are, however, that I have been to Wrexham only once. I visited the local constituency Conservative Association in my capacity as deputy chairman. I was accompanied on this trip, at all times, by Stuart Newman, a Central Office agent. We visited Mary Bell, a distant relative of mine and close friend of Stuart Newman. We did not stay the night in Wrexham. I have never been to the children's home in Wrexham, nor have I ever visited any children's home, reform school or any other institution of a similar nature. I have never stayed in a hotel in or near Wrexham, I did not own a Rolls-Royce, have never had a "Gold card" or "Harrods card" and never wear aftershave, all of which have been alleged. I did not sexually abuse Mr Messham or any other residents of the children's home in Wrexham. Stuart Newman is now dead but my solicitors are endeavouring to locate a senior secretary who worked at Central Office at the time to see if she can remember the precise date I visited that association.

I fully support the decision (announced by the home secretary in the House of Commons on Tuesday) of the chief constable of north Wales, Mr Mark Polin, to invite Mr Keith Bristow, the director general of the National Crime Agency, to assess the allegations recently received, to review the historic police investigations and to investigate any fresh allegations reported to the police into the alleged historic abuse in north Wales care homes. Although I live in Italy and have done so for many years and although I am in poor health, I am entirely willing to meet Mr Polin and Mr Bristow in London as soon as can be arranged so that they can eliminate me from their inquiries and so that any unwarranted suspicion can be removed from me.

I wish to make it clear that I do not suggest that Mr Messham is malicious in making the allegations of sexual abuse about me. He is referring to a terrible period of his life in the 1970s or 1980s and what happened to him will have affected him ever since. If he does think I am the man who abused him all those years ago I can only suggest that he is mistaken and that he has identified the wrong person.

I conclude by reminding those who have defamed me or who intend to do so that in making this statement I am by no means giving up my right to seek redress at law and repeat that I expressly reserve my rights to take all such steps as I and my solicitors consider necessary to protect my interests.

ninah · 11/11/2012 18:46

a liking for women and a liking for boys can co-exist
just look at savile

Xenia · 11/11/2012 18:48

I know but he was married several times and liked women. Savile never married and liked the young. That is quite a difference. There seems to be no evidence whatsoever to malign this family.

Xenia · 11/11/2012 18:49

In fact it was policemen wasn't it who apparently said of the now destroyed picture - to SM - this is Lord M (when it wasn't). They might have had it in for that family or just got it wrong.

Abra1d · 11/11/2012 18:51

Can we have the link showing that Lord McAlpine is suing Steve Messham (as opposed to any BBC journalists, Sally B, or George M), please?

Does it exist?

FiercePanda · 11/11/2012 18:55

I mistakenly thought McAlpine was considering suing SM as well as Sally Bercow and George Monbiot. After reading his statement (thanks, Xenia), I realise he's not. Apologies.

The Daily Mail and David Mellor are still horrible for what they've said.

Mrcrumpswife · 11/11/2012 18:57

How can he sue Sally Bercow? She asked a question and didnt accuse him of anything.

ninah · 11/11/2012 18:59

it does indeed seem that the evidence for maligning anyone at all - apart from SM himself - has disappeared into the ether

Darkesteyes · 11/11/2012 21:07

chipstick10Sun 11-Nov-12 18:37:17

Why is it fair game to call someone a Tory scumbag

Why is it fair game to call SM a benefit cheat when he has been cleared of that?

Feenie · 11/11/2012 21:12

Feenie - is Lord M's relative definitely guilty of abuse?

I have no idea - conveniently, he appears to be dead. Hmm

If it was a Labour politician who was mistakenly accused of a crime which had in fact been carried out by a relative, do you think he should hide his head in shame and not sue for defamation?

Yes - of course, without question. I agreed with the sentiment of the comment - the politics are irrelevant (although often seem to be a common denominator atm).

edam · 11/11/2012 21:15

Very dignified statement. I do feel tremendously sorry for Lord McAlpine and for poor Steve Meesham, who clearly didn't intend to accuse an innocent man.

Curious fact, though, that Lord McA has a relative named Mary Bell - a name that is a legal phrase, IIRC (isn't it a Mary Bell order that prohibits the naming of a child criminal?). I guess there probably have been many people called Mary Bell down the years given neither is a particularly unusual name, just another weird thing about this deeply weird story.

Xenia · 11/11/2012 22:04

If he has any sense he will sue no one. It will cost a fortune and just keep people going on and on about it. Most people libelled are best advised to leave well alone.

edam · 11/11/2012 22:52

Very true in general Xenia but Jesus, if anyone had a case, it's got to be McAlpine. Poor man is apparently Not Well At All though so possibly not up for a nasty fight that could last for years.