Exposure, newsnight etc discussion part 2

[MrsjREwing]

Last thread full.

Steve has released a statement responding to Lord McAlpines statement.

'As well as basic details such as the child's address and attendance records, information about special needs and behavioural records are also included.'

According to that behavioural records are also included.

On SM - they say he attacked a lawyer in court.

Also "In 2005, Messham was also cleared of a £33,000 benefits fraud. He admitted concealing savings of £40,000 ? a result of compensation for the alleged abuse ? when he made claims for income support and housing benefit, but insisted he had not intended to be dishonest."

I am not suggesting children are not abused but it is clear that often the victims do not make good witnesses and often because of the abuse they suffered find it harder to be clear and honest =- it's why people pick vulnerable victims and it makes the job of the CPD harder as you don't waste money on cases where there is no good evidence.

On the child database which I hope isn ot applied in private schools:

" A DATABASE containing the personal details of 8m schoolchildren is being created without parents? knowledge by one of Britain?s biggest contractors to government.

Information gathered by teachers on pupils across the country is being uploaded up to six times a day into a database called ?One? that has been created by Capita, a company that specialises in providing IT systems.

Documents seen by The Sunday Times reveal that access to the data ? which includes age, sex, address, academic record, absenteeism, special needs and bad behaviour leading to exclusion ? can be provided to thousands of other officials including police, NHS staff and charities.

The existence of the One database, which is already used by about 100 local authorities, has emerged two years after ContactPoint, a national database set up by the Labour government and containing millions of children?s details, was scrapped by the coalition because of security concerns.

Documents on the One database state that classroom information gathered by teachers is used to provide ?a golden thread of data? that can be accessed easily by all those working with children. It will be announced later this month that youth offending teams, which include police officers, will be offered access to the information.

This weekend the Information Commissioner?s Office said it would examine whether uploading personal details into One complied with data protection laws.

Most parents are not told that detailed information gathered on their child each day can be routinely shared with other agencies and may be held indefinitely.

Nick Pickles, director of the campaign group Big Brother Watch, described it as an invasion of privacy without proper safeguards: ?This is creating by stealth a cradle-to-grave digital record of every single person. It is ContactPoint by another name.

?Parents will be shocked that they are being kept in the dark about how their child?s information is being gathered and exactly what it is being used for.?

Capita has provided school management systems called Sims for many years. Councils can now upload the data from Sims into the One database for use by other agencies.

Councils are using the software to upload individual pupil information with name, address and school records.

The council databases are held separately but can offer access to any officials wanting to examine a child?s background. The records could be integrated if required into one centralised database.

Capita says it can be used to draw data ?up to six times a day? from the 22,000 schools that use its management service.

The firm licenses photographers to take pictures of schoolchildren. The photographs are offered for sale to parents before being uploaded into the Capita school management database. Teachers then compile information in an electronic file with the picture of the child.

The One software in council offices uploads the information every day, but not the photographs.

Another software program ? called API ? can allow external agencies to look at the children?s information.

Officials, such as social workers, can also add information into the One file. Capita says this may be mapping a child?s main personal connections and noting such details as whether there is a dangerous dog in the house.

At Swindon council, information on 48,000 pupils on its Capita One database is being shared with health officials at NHS Swindon and with youth offending teams. A council official said some of the information might be held indefinitely but it would be provided only to those who needed to see it, in line with data protection laws.

Capita Children?s Services, which designed Capita One, said the sharing of such information provides a ?single view? of a child to identify those who are vulnerable and may need support.

Capita said it had no available information for parents about how its system worked because local authorities managed the data. It said schools and councils took data protection rules very seriously. ?Very few? councils were using the software which enabled external agencies to search the data, it added. ?Capita One is not a centralised database for the whole country,? it said.

The Department for Education said there were no plans to centralise the Capita One data. It said: ?The department has no plans for any ContactPoint-style database.?

Ok. Reading the link, it looks like they are talking about the type of information management system we use, but focusing on its potential expansion beyond individual schools. The report says only a few areas do this now. Swindon, it seems?

So the software is available, but the vast majority of schools do not share this information outside the school. And, as I said, in our system, parents can log on and see the information for their child.

I dio't know of any secondary school that doesn't use an information management system actually.

Ah, so it is an extension of sims.

We don't use sims. It's only one of a number of possible systems.

feenie Do you take the register electronically?

claig In my school, we use it just for admin. In my dc's secondary school, which we can access online if I could only remember the password, I believe they log things like any detentions or order/uniform marks given, as well as how many commendations they've been given. Maybe that's what they mean.

All I've ever seen in ours is just numerical data, along with addresses and contact numbers. Anything anecdotal would be written elsewhere I think.

And teachers wouldn't be 'compiling' anything - it would be an adninistrators' job. Can't see what the fuss is about, personally.

Yes, clam - have done for about 14 years.

adninistrators'?

administrator's

They are difficult issues. Big databases mean many many more people can gain unauthorised access. Index cards at your local GP are much less at risk than an NHS wide database etc. On the other hand lack of information about teacher X or pupil Y involved in ABC not being passed on when jobs or people move can endanger people. However on balance I would say parents should give an express signed consent, have the rights to access the data regularly and be allowed to keep out of it.

The stuff on the Capita data base is far too big brotherish - who has a dog in the house, pictures of the children etc. No wonder it is in today's papers.

'I can't see that there's anything more sinister about that than the computerised systems in doctors' surgeries.'

Wasn't that the worry about a national computerised record system? Issues with security of the data and who would be allowed to have access to confidential data.

feenie so presumably that's part of a bigger data package, that has the scope for other information?

On the wider issue, wasn't part of the issue about children like Victoria Climbie and Peter Connolly that there was no joined-up thinking or action on the part of all the agencies who were dealing with their families? And that it was decided that a central file ought to be kept so that such children didn't get lost in the system?

i like adninistrators. adninnying around.

But we live in a computerised age - all organisations and businesses run databases. We like the convenience of being able to book a doctor's appointment online, or being able to print off a child's attendance figures prior to filling in that box on their report.

Whether it's computerised or not, al professionals should know that anything they write down about a child (or patient) should be factual and accountable - not unsubstantiated hearsay, for instance (and I refer to craig's mention of a playground fight/bullying)

clam, I have googled but can't find it now. There was an article in the Daily Mail a few years ago where headteachers refused to take part in a questionnaire initiative which asked questions like what cars teachers drove and asked children whether their parents smoked or drank etc.

Blunkett said something like it was possible to spot future criminals in nursery school.

If parents don't know what comments have been made about children, then there is a danger that some things may typecast and stereotype children and if it is available for years, then there are questions about what it is being used for and if it may harm childen's prospects in the future.

I think it is about real civil liberties of the individual and a powerful, possible, future Big Brother-like state.

Well, if it was a few years ago under Labour, and head teachers refused to give the information, it's not happening then, yes?

What I don't understand (amongst many things...) is that originally it was reported as being "A man with the same surname as a senior Tory" I.e. a Mr McAlpine. How did this shift into being an accusation of Lord McAlpine? And then into a case of "mistaken identity".

Yes, clam. It wouldn't include behavioural stuff though. Or comments. It's purely administrative.

We have had what looks like cover-ups of peadophile scandals and teh public is now incensed since the whole Savile thing brought it to the public's attention.

Repoerts need to be published and things discussed in the open in order for 'trust to be key'. We need transparency.

Similarly, we need transaparency of what data is held on children and citizens, what it is used for and by whom, in order for 'trust to be key'.

In the Stasi state, all sorts of public officials held secret records on and reported on citizens. Our civil liberties organisations are meant to ensure that that can never happen here.

What I don't understand (amongst many things...) is that originally it was reported as being "A man with the same surname as a senior Tory" I.e. a Mr McAlpine. How did this shift into being an accusation of Lord McAlpine? And then into a case of "mistaken identity".

A bit of a set up maybe? No one had officially identified him, he did it himself.

"It's purely administrative"

Exactly. So what's the Mail going on about? Surely not trying to stir up rage?

LordM had to issue his statement because his name was widely available in about 1 minute of searching by anyone on line. It was not like a number of other cases where it is pretty hard to find it.

On the databas I would rather some children were left at risk that schools gathered and passed on details to a database such as whether the parents smoke, with whom do they live, income etc etc.

We need a public debate on this issues. Many of us would rather have a slightly higher risk of death from terrorists than jeopardise some freedoms.

The NHS database was abandoned by this Government I think because of those risks being too high. I woudl rather not have joined up thinking and less be known eveni f the risks are higher of damage to chidlren.

Also, didn't Steve Messham say that he thought this particular abuser was dead? Why didn't the BBC ask him that? Also why did the BBC use the Bureau of Investigation or whatever it is called? How often do they use them for Newsnight reports and why use them on such an important story?

I don't believe that only the Guardian could put two and two together about this. Lots of the media must have known similar things.

Something doesn't add up.

On the databas I would rather some children were left at risk that schools gathered and passed on details to a database such as whether the parents smoke, with whom do they live, income etc etc.

I know of no database which would include that kind of information, nor of any reason why a school would record anything like that.

Yes, I don't think this database does include that type of information.

There was a Mail article about a questionnaire or survey or something like that for primary school children a few years back which contained some information like that, I think. But I have googled and can't find it. If anyone has good googling skills, it would be interesting to see it. I think that headteachers refused to take part.

Today's newspaper article above says the Capita database has those details or some of them.

"The firm licenses photographers to take pictures of schoolchildren. The photographs are offered for sale to parents before being uploaded into the Capita school management database. Teachers then compile information in an electronic file with the picture of the child. The One software in council offices uploads the information every day, but not the photographs. Another software program ? called API ? can allow external agencies to look at the children?s information. Officials, such as social workers, can also add information into the One file. Capita says this may be mapping a child?s main personal connections and noting such details as whether there is a dangerous dog in the house."