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Newsnight Fri 2 Nov please watch v Important you know who is running the country

999 replies

MrsjREwing · 02/11/2012 11:53

Tom Watkins tweeted a seniour politician will be outed tonight and Max Clifford said on Daybreak shocking news will be released by the BBC today.

OP posts:
isupposeimabitofafraud · 03/11/2012 10:14

Actually even if he was dead they might legally have a problem naming him anyway.

If you read the article that has been posted by a number of sites and is supposed to be from the guardian in 1997 it says the following:

When the tribunal was established last year, it had been assumed that the press could report its proceedings, using the laws of privilege which allow them to name names from court cases and public hearings without fear of libel actions.

However, Sir Ronald then ruled that the media could not report the name of any living person who was accused or likely to be accused of abusing children in the North Wales homes unless they had previously been convicted of such an offence.

Since then he has extended his ruling twice: he has granted anonymity to one man who died 16 years ago and to another who has twice been convicted of sexually assaulting boys from a North Wales home.

Sir Ronald has argued that his ruling will encourage alleged paedophiles to come froward and give honest evidence without fear of retribution. Critics say this is unnecessary, since he has the power to compel witnesses to attend, and that those who have come forward have done so to deny the allegations and not to make a clean breast of their alleged offences.

One lawyer who has been involved with the tribunal said he feared that the anonymity ruling was actively discouraging witnesses. "Newspaper readers may well have information of potential value to this tribunal. They may themselves have been the victims of abuse, or they may have worked with the alleged abusers. But if the press is not allowed to inform them of the names of those against whom allegations are made, they will not learn that their information is important. So they will not come forward."

This is a crucial thing to look at and understand.
a) it was believed that a media blackout would "encourage alleged paedophiles to give honest evidence and be treated without fear retribution." - thus recognising the dangers of trial by media ruining innocent reputations and possible vigilanti attacks - which I do understand in terms of what is happening with so many names being thrown around - and potentially how this could affect justice (right to a fair trial is a good way to get someones conviction over turned); however how does that justify extending anonymity to the dead and convicted?

b) there is no thought of how a media blackout would also act to silence victims and how they are put as a lesser priority to the dead and convicted criminals.

I'd also like to point out two things that seem to be being conveniently forgotten as this becomes more and more of an internet witch hunt rather than a proper organised investigation which the government and indeed press are rapidly loosing control of due to their incompetence damaging public confidence just so much.

  1. whilst I applaud the work of conspiracy theorists who pursued this for years, when the people who should have whistleblown haven't, I'm also wary about the situation it creates when they are proved true on this. It doesn't mean they are right about everything else but people having lost faith in the establishment means people are looking for others to fill a vacuum and be sucked into believing a hell of a lot of crap in the process. Its not lost on me that David Icke makes a living from this and that is something to be cautious of. Last night his site went down around the time of newsnight and hes put a big thing up saying the site was attacked. Nothing to do with the sheer volume of traffic - (high traffic being to blame for frequently killing ticket selling websites for popular artists) - it has to be yet another conspiracy. Whether its genuine understandable paranoia after years of being ridiculed or deliberately trying to misled 'followers' is perhaps beside the point; reason and logic first followed by raising questioning after.

My point is vigilance and questioning are great; we've not done nearly enough. But out and out paranoia is really unhelpful and we must not fall into this trap either.

  1. there has been a focus on Tory politicians in this - because a Tory is involved and because its been reported that Hague was Welsh Security at the time of the first report that led to this tribunal. A tribunal that was held between 1997 and 2000 AFTER the election of Tony Blair. So any findings of the tribunal and potential subsequent cover up fall under the watch of a Labour government. This is important. It shouldn't be a political point scoring exercise as its about a general problem rather than a Labour / Tory one but its going to be used in that way unfortunately. The D notice on Islington care home, especially in the context of this scandal, raises huge questions that need to be answered.

In the best interests of getting to the bottom of this, party allegiances have to be put to one side when debating this otherwise it detracts from the most important things; the victims and preventing this from ever happening again - both in terms of the abusers and the cover ups that have very clearly happened (and are still happening) at the ever going list of institutions being exposed.

FiercePanda · 03/11/2012 10:17

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Growlithe · 03/11/2012 10:18

Wynken Yes it is depressing. But I like to also think it's a very important time in British History. It's proving that cover ups cannot last for ever, the truth will always out.

I think we will see more of the same in the coming year, now Pandora's box has been opened. I think in the end the country will be better for it, and so your daughter will grow up in a better world than your mum.

claig · 03/11/2012 10:24

Good points, isupposeimabitofafraud.

You have to use judgement. Lots of conspiracy theories are deliberate disinfo and some are true, some contradict others. I think that some of what Icke says is disinfo and some is true.

Also if you believe what is on the net, then this is wider than a party.

Xenia · 03/11/2012 10:57

Let us see who sues for libel. some who are innocent may choose not to as it just brings more attention to the libel itself of course. I think there may be an injunction granted yesterday which perhaps is one of those we are not even allowed to know exist so in that case if the jailhouse link poster above does not know about the injunction presumably they are not at risk in posting the link.

What is clear is that vulnerable children are exploited. My father in a sense involved with this field used to suggest rather controversially that even if a birth family are not up to much that given the poor outcomes for most children in care you are probably better off supporting the child within its own family. That is what most social workers try to do and I am not happy about the increase in adoptions and removal of children. I think on the whole they are safer being left where they are although not of course all the time.

The other issue is that men (it is usually men) who simply go abroad to get what they are after. Even in the UK in the 1930s men with to Morocco if they wanted boys. It would be interesting if the rise of fundamentalist Islam and its prohibitions on same sex relationships ended up protecting children.

We also have to ensure that those men who are gay are never automatically assumed to be interested in children. They are no more so than heterosexual women or men and it is very unfair if that assumption is made. It is a totally different thing.

ha3782 · 03/11/2012 11:16

Hi Xenia,

I suspect that once everything has come out we will see that there are actually very few people with these particular tastes, whether they are straight or not. I believe that power is the main factor here, whether it's through entrapment or blackmail or whatever. Being gay or having an affair is not shocking or career-ruining anymore but child abuse is the ultimate taboo, this may be more about putting people in compromising positions to get power over them.

But yeah, one's sexuality is irrelevant. Also one's political party is irrelevant too, I'm sure there will be offenders on both sides.

hackmum · 03/11/2012 11:29

fiercepanda - wow, I wasn't expecting that last name! Surely the blogger now runs a real risk of being sued?

Xenia · 03/11/2012 11:37

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Feenie · 03/11/2012 11:58

Seriously, Xenia?

Sympathy for Jimmy Savile, Jonathan King, Gary Glitter?

No. Any sympathy is strictly reserved for their victims. You have a point perhaps if you consider that many paedophiles may have been victims of abuse themselves, but there is a line to be crossed there, and any sympathy I have diminishes entirely when it's crossed.

isupposeimabitofafraud · 03/11/2012 11:59

Xenia what you just said is actually very offensive and an apologist point of view.

Just because you are sexually attracted to a particular type of person from birth which is beyond your control does not mean you also commit violent acts upon that group as that is definitely within the realms of making a conscious decision and that you lack the ability to understand the concept of consent and abuses of power.

In this case we are talking about men who were in positions of considerable positions of trust and therefore needed to be highly intelligent and have good knowledge of acceptable behaviour within society and understanding of the law and abuses of their position. Saying that they had this underlying sexual preference that they couldn't control just doesn't cut it I'm afraid. As for having sympathy for them? Nope, not really.

To be blunt about it, even if they had sexual preferences that are outside of the boundaries of the law - not just social acceptance - they were intelligent enough to understand that and understand the consequences of acting upon them and have a good understand of why they shouldn't have acted on them.

Stop making shit excuses.

Pinot · 03/11/2012 12:22

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JakeBullet · 03/11/2012 12:32

I think Xenia has a point in the idea of prevention. It is NOT okay to sexually abuse children or involve them I sexual acts just as it is NOT okay to rape a woman or beat her.

At the moment programmes exist to help offenders address abusive behaviour with domestic violence (with varying regress of success).
Rape is never acceptable and nor is abuse of children. We need to look at treatment options if they exist, as children might be safer with them. Doing this though means we have to be open and accept that some adults have a predilection for children sexually....horrible though that is. A the moment we can't accept it and we drive these people underground as a result....

And I am an ex abuse victim.....I would far rather my abuser had been abe to say openly that he had an issue and got treatment than go through the ordeal I did.

Is there a way of allowing such perpetrators to get help and therefore protect children? That's the bit I am hazy on.

FiercePanda · 03/11/2012 12:42

Just report my post if the blog link could be dodgy.

NapOfTheDamned · 03/11/2012 12:43

Bloody good postsisuppose

MrsjREwing · 03/11/2012 12:43

umm, second thread this week people said this about xenia Pinot. Do people report?

OP posts:
claig · 03/11/2012 12:47

Fierce, I think it would be best to remove that link as there is no evidence quoted at all. It looks like teh blogger is possibly in the US or somewhere.

DreamsTurnToGoldDust · 03/11/2012 12:47

isuppose says all that is needed to be said.

HellATwork · 03/11/2012 13:05

hear hear Isuppose - very well said on all points. There really are no political points to be scored in this horrific mess which is why it has remained hidden for so long - political stalemate where no party can gain an advantage by unmasking the abusers becausse at the same time they risk unmasking their own party's abusers. The abusers and their protectors are cross-party in all strata of parliament. You only have to look at 1960s high profile abusers - all now dead but long associated - Lord Boothby (conservative) and his boy orgies with Ronnie Kray; Tom Driberg MP (Labour); Jeremy thorpe (liberal democrat) are all examples.

MI5 and MI6 have been revealed to be up to this to their necks ever since Thatcher had to ask Sir Maurice Oldfield (head of MI6 at the time) to step down over the Kincora Boys' Home abuse scandal - if you have a national intelligence service who, having lost their power to blackmail key politicians, foreign diplomats etc through threatening to reveal homosexuality (Wolfenden made homosexuality legal in 1967), it appears they will find another, worse tool for gaining leverage over people. There are many, many, varied motives amongst this proliferation of powerful and in power abusers and those who are desperate to keep this covered up.

isupposeimabitofafraud · 03/11/2012 13:11

I am now somewhat amused by the fact that David Icke has now removed his comment on his headlines page about how the site was under attack last night as it kept going down!

Definitely wasn't a figment of my imagination, and I'm glad it has been removed tbh. Just... well... questioning motives is always a worthwhile exercise in assessing stuff.

Hummingbirds · 03/11/2012 13:20

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LineRunner · 03/11/2012 13:25

There was a terrible spate of abductions and murders of children, young girls and young boys, in the mid 1980s. There was the sense of a cover up. Although the Police through Operation Orchid did eventually get a few convictions (e.g. Leslie Bailey), most of the murderers are still loose and many victims' bodies are yet to be found.

Mark Tildesley, Barry Lewis, Jason Swift. Up to 20 men were involved in raping and murdering them.

I hope this comes under scrutiny again.

claig · 03/11/2012 13:32

Hummingbirds, I didn't see any evidence quoted on that site, just pictures. I don't think it is right to accuse people without any evidence quoted. Lots of people have been named elsewhere together with details about care homes or newspaper articles etc.

clam · 03/11/2012 13:46

I'd be interested to now what topics Andrew Neil and his guest presenters have been discussing this week in his "This Week" programmes.