Are you in favour of Scotland leaving the UK?

[LadyMaryCreepyCrawley]

Lucky bastards!

Scottish independence threads always go this way. Discussion and debate until what's left is lots of pro-separatists get posting amongst themselves witha few sane lone posters.

Charlie, your description of the economic options was quite misguided and not sound at all. Ireland should join the pound? In 2014?! Deluded at best. Much of what you have written has enormous holes in.

If Scotland does leave the UK, we will need to explain to the rest of the UK why they should have us in the pound. You seem to be demanding that they keep us and then set policies that will benefit us to the detriment of them. Crazy. The public spending policies and therefore the bank rate setting will reflect the priorities of the English and Welsh and Northern Irish elecorates. Not Scotland. The common sterling area will not be rejected out of political spite (phurleeese) but because it won't work.

Oh, and there was some statistic about 6% growth in small country trade after jointing the Euro. This won't apply to Scotland since we are likely to see a decline in trade of at least that size when should we join the Euro we have to give up the currency of our largest trading partner (£).

And as for the stuff about brothers with wry smiles (and, God, that is so the kind of sit-yer-wee-sel-dawn kind of guff we have to put up with in this debate) - I thnk for many Scots this IS what they want. Some sort of equality with London. However, an inferiority complex is no good reason to break up a stable nations.

This is a good thing. Rather than being dictated to by Westminster we would be in a partnership with other EU countries. - itsAllGoingToBeFine

Oh, no, really? You can't seriously believe this - do you not watch the news?! Just ask anyone on the Greek/Italian/Spanish streets whether they feel they're 'in partnership' with Europe.

And do you even know what 'dictated to' means? And have you missed our Westminster MPs, our MEPs, our council seats, our actual Scottish Parliament?

If it's democracy you crave then the status quo is significantly more to Scotland's benefit.

"Scottish independence threads always go this way. Discussion and debate until what's left is lots of pro-separatists get posting amongst themselves with a few sane lone posters."

well thank GOD you are here, SundaeGirl.

I presume, by the same logic, that if someone doesn't want to get divorced, they can stop the other person from divorcing them? They can delay the process and make it difficult but in the end it only increases bitterness if one partner is keeping a reluctant partner in the marriage union.

That's where people don't understand history. We are not one country. We are a Union of countries. Sovereignty has been retained by the Scottish people, which is recognised in the "Claim of Right". The English people don't have the same right. So if the Scots choose to vote for independence (and it's a big "if"), they have the right to do so.

If the Union is to survive, it needs to be with willing constituent parts.

Aitch, I'm graduating in Scottish History, so do you want to have a chat with my lecturers because you think that you know more?

Itsallgoingtobefine, re- your post, a good historian never, and I say, NEVER, checks wikipedia. I even have it written down black on white on my uni documents that Wiki is misleading a lot and it SHOULDN'T be used.
So what you're referring to (the link you posted too) is devoid of any historical meaning and value.

As regards the trade, it will drop down a lot after the independence. Not just because it's Scotland but because it's just normal. Whoever is investing here at the moment he'll become suspicious and fearful anyway. So there will be an economical loss anyway.
If there are any advantages in it, they'll become probably evident a decade later.

Yes, the guess was right, Bannockburn and Commonwealth Games have always been my guess too.

@Sundaegirl, trying to infuse some common sense into nationalists (Scottish or of another country doesn't change anything) is usually a waste of time.
Re-what you said about Greek/Italian/Spanish people, I was originally one of them (Italy). The reason why me and dozens of other Italian and Spanish people migrated to Scotland was that the situation we had to stand where we were coming from was unbearable, this mainly due to those "lazyb*ms" sitting at Strasbourg, who never did anything else than issuing laws to make our lives miserable.
Before the euro, if we had a decent job we could afford everything. After 2002, our lives were ruined, no matter what job you had. 50% of an Italian monthly wage goes to the government now (meaning that if you earn 2000 euros, you get 1000 in your payslip). A 2 bedroom rent is around 800 euros. You can do the math.
Everyone is in debt somehow or getting a loan or a mortgage for everything because they can't afford to buy anything anymore with cash, even a car stereo.

I know that nationalists only cares about themselves but they should maybe have a look at what's outside their borders and concerning their own country even at what's inside their borders, only farther north.

If the Union is to survive, it needs to be with willing constituent parts

I totally agree with that. Although I don't agree with SNP polictics anymore (which only focus on independence debates instead of doing something for the country NOW), I think that's right that only Scottish citizens and residents should have a say in the matter. If the Union is deemed to fail or survive, everyone has to agree with that.

There's no logical reason why English people should vote about it.

gosh at you graduating in Scottish History. so am I, by sheer coincidence!

Itsallgoingtobefine, re- your post, a good historian never, and I say, NEVER, checks wikipedia

That's a very fair point and I hold my hand up. I was being lazy. In essence though it is correct, the elite of Scotland bankrupted the country on the Darien thing then agreed to the union as they had some chance of having their money back. This was not what most Scots wanted, even though it may have been the best thing.

Sundaegirl And as for the stuff about brothers with wry smiles (and, God, that is so the kind of sit-yer-wee-sel-dawn kind of guff we have to put up with in this debate)
Unfortunately I can't claim credit for the analogy. It was someone else (I think Solesource) who originally compared the two countries as brothers, I just expanded on it a bit...

To twist this thread on its head a little, as these type of discussions end up being Independenistas (love that word) defending their positions, I'm going to ask a couple of questions as the Brit-Nationalists...

? Based on the recently discussed figures that in a new Indy Scotland, we would be around £3k per person annually better off, would you rather not use this to provide for better health, schools, infrastructure, rather than sending our troops to be killed in American-led wars?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-19955309

• Now that a lot of the hidden financial figures for Scotlands taxpayers are now in the public domain, how do you feel that £27 billion has been overpaid since the 70's, whilst that money could have been spend on saving much of the social decline seen in our major urban areas (...rather then the Dome, Channel Tunnel, Olympics, etc...)

Scotland contributes 9.4% of the UK tax take, but receives 8.6% back - that sure adds up over the decades....

? Looking at how Norway has put its oil revenue in a special fund, which not sits at a staggering $600 Billion USD, how do you feel that had Scotland been Independent since the last referendum in '79 (...the fixed one) Scotland would have a similar fund to spend on its own issues, not Westminster-led follies?

Scotland contributes 9.4% of the UK tax take, but receives 8.6% back - that sure adds up over the decades....

Hmmm. Ok, these figures are widely debated but....

International Aid
Contribution to : EU, IMF, UN, NATO, Interntional Aid.

Charlie, you've glossed over my previous post about the economics.

Sundaegirl ah, if only to find it all went on international aid, that would be a truly noble use that I could not object to.

I'm guessing a wee bit goes on boring nationwide things like dvla. A reasonable chunk went on the Olympics. A massive amount went on trident and wars. Does that sound right?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine "This is a good thing. Rather than being dictated to by Westminster we would be in a partnership with other EU countries."

That's brilliant, when do you start your standup tour? :)

How much power do you think Scotland would have as part of the EU? Let's not imagine for one second that all EU countries are equal, because as in any union the bigger richer countries get a bigger voice. In Westminster politics Scotland is actually over-represented for its size, due to the historical roots of the union and because there's a strong and proud history of Scots engaging in the political system.

So you're feeling unrepresented as a 5m population country in a union of 62m people? How much representation are you expecting in a union with 500m people? You think France or Germany will give a seconds care to the needs of Scotland?

Let's not lie to ourselves here, the UK as a whole is barely large enough to be completely secure in the world as an independant entity. We get by because we have deep roots throughout the world, a fairly strong recognized currency, some strong alliances and a position of power that is based largely on past glories. When things go badly wrong we have options, and we can be mostly sure that we'll struggle through.

You genuinely believe that a tiny independant Scotland with its 5m inhabitants is going to continue to have that kind of protection? You'd be one financial crisis away from a massive world of hurt, and the only solution you have to insulate yourselves against that is to hand over that independance you insist you want straight back to a European super union.

Scotland is not big enough to stand on its own in the world. Neither is Wales, N.Ireland or even England for that matter. We survive (and sometimes even thrive) because in our union we are stronger and more resiliant. If you want to give that up forever on the promise of a Shangri-La built on whiskey and wind farms then that's up to you, but you hurt every UK citizen in the process.

SundaeGirl, following on from your 09:26 post, (i think this is the one you meant) Ireland joining the pound isn't as far fetched as it seems. Why not? Unlikely, but certainly doable if things got really, really dire.

I don't get your point about EU, IMF, DVLA, International aid, etc. This is paid for anyhow from that 9.4% in the same way every UK citizen does. It still doesn't explain the differences of taxation vs expenditure and the missing £27bn

re: Growth stats. You can't pick and choose arbitrarily that this won't happen when its happened many times already, and dismiss it because it doesn't fit your POV or argument. Thats just silly...

Stable nation?

You are pulling my leg now...

Lets not kid ourselves. Scotland wants independence from England because it hates the English. Scotland doesn't want independence from the EU because ....?
Prefers to be ruled directly by the EU rather than indirectly vi the UK

And I am very happy for Scotland to be an independent state if that's what its citizens wishes.

Kentonio

If the constituent parts can't live on their own, how on earth did nations like Malta, survive. And they are in the Euro too, and seem to be ok considering...

You can't make sweeping statements without some evidence to back it up.

..it be on a par with saying 'Man United are rubbish'. Why? 'Because they just are'. Its just another unqualified POV statement.

Its all about the economics. Which are unravelling day, by day, by day.

Charlie1972 Countries like Malta are not independent in the true sense of the word, they are part of a much larger union. That provides protection but removes the very independence that is supposed to be your reason for leaving the UK in the first place.

You want to talk about economics, ok please explain to me where Scotlands income is going to come from once oil reserves are depleted?

Wait a minute. The EU stuff is muddying the waters a lot.

AT THE MOMENT, the UK is dictated to by the EU. The UK govt follows the rules and Scotland has to do the same. The Scottish.Govt, however, do not have a seat round the table. Not even on discussions about fishing or farming which are really pretty important in Scotland.

So with independence, Scotland could join the EU. This would mean we were dictated to by Europe, as we are presently, but that we would actually have input in the discussions rather than being excluded.

I am aware that we would have to cede more influence/power to Europe than we currently do, but this would still be far far less than Westminster has.

Plus we would have something like double the number of MEPs, so more say in Europe! (if I recall correctly we would get 14 and we have 7 currently, but I could be wrong on that one as it's a while since I read that.)

Perhaps Scotland could drop its corporation tax to a lower level like N.I are trying to do, this would increase foreign investment, increase jobs and prospects by becoming more competitive.

What JollyJackLantern said, and said so much better than me :)

Where is the UK's income going to come from once oil reserves are depleted? A strange point to make.

We also have tourism, whisky, manufacturing, renewable energy (in abundance), financial services, service sector, agriculture, computer games makers, shipbuilders, fishing.... We don't all just live on the procedes from oil!

Kentonio, good point about Europe.

I actually think that is one of the weakest points of Salmond's political plan and maybe one that could doom his long-seeked referendum. Especially because the European presence on Scotland's soil is quite high at the moment and if Salmond chooses an euro-centred Scotland, it will alienate the EEA voters who previously had supported his party (me being one).

Just to remind everyone that the strong European migration of recent years is mainly due to the fact that, as Kentonio was right in mentioning as in any union the bigger richer countries get a bigger voice and the most badly hit countries saw diasporas of people leaving their own homes. France and Germany are at the centre of power in Europe, they're countries with more than 60 millions of people in them and with a strong opinion on many issues which they want to force upon the others.

No matter what, countries like Portugal/Spain/Italy/Greece they never had any other choice that say 'yes' to European proposals, whatever effect that could have on their countries and peoples.

Scotland wouldn't be no different. It's preposterous thinking that Scots could have a role in European matters, as none of the other countries have anyway.

I think membership as an independent nation to the EU would demand that they don't lower the corporation tax rate. I know Ireland's corporation tax of 12.5% infuriates much of the EU.

Great for Ireland though.

The Eu has crippled Europe financially . I will only vote for independence IF it is guarenteed that Scotland stays out of the euro.

Look at what they have don't to Italy ,Greece , ect .

Scotland will probably get independence , but unfortunately the majority people who are voting dont really understand what they are voting for ...and most likely are looking to a way to get rid of the Tory gov. ( here's a shocker Shettlestonions (area 54 , Glasgow) , you can get Scottish torys too ).