Are you in favour of Scotland leaving the UK?

[LadyMaryCreepyCrawley]

Lucky bastards!

Flippin' eck Charlie! Well done, that was really clear and helpful-thank you :)

I'm sure oil is a huge factor but you can't underestimate Tory affection/sense of ownership over anywhere considered 'British' be that Scotland, Falklands, Gibraltar or wherever. They're not a party of change. Plus I'm sure that more than a few of them have a Highlands estate in the family!

Xposted, Charlie.

But it's not all about money is it? Let's face it, if all the best financial brains in the world didn't see this financial crisis coming (as they would have us believe), you can't be certain that things will go the way Salmond and the SNP envisage, can you?

Smokies and mirrors.

Like two quarrelsome siblings sulking in their own bedrooms rather than playing Monopoly together in the sitting room

Great analogy but I see it the other way around.

At the moment Westminster is the big brother, and Scotland is the wee brother. Big brother is pretty selfish, calls all the shots, makes up new rules all the time, takes toys and won't give them back.

All the wee brother can do is continuously whine "its not fair, he huuuurt me".

If Scotland had independence it would be those brothers in 30 years time, all grown up. Able to look back on the childhood tears with a wry smile, but enjoy the new close relationship built on respect and equality rather than the power of one over the other.

But it's not all about money is it? Let's face it, if all the best financial brains in the world didn't see this financial crisis coming (as they would have us believe), you can't be certain that things will go the way Salmond and the SNP envisage, can you

(many financial brains did see the collapse coming but were ignored through greed)

Anyway, to address your actual point :)

Looking at the arguments for and against its really just swings and roundabouts. Scotland is unlikely to be spectacularly financially better off, and is unlikely to turn into Greece.

If there is another global shitstorm then if Scotland was independent it could manage its finances in a way that is best for Scotland. In the current situation the government is pretty much focused on London and the SE.

Your totally right. It is not just about money. It is about to an independent country make its own decisions that are right for that country.

and it's about our children and grandchildren growing up somewhere that their vote counts...

massive ARF at smokies and mirrors. now i'm off to read the megalong post.

I'm enjoying most of the contributions to this thread immensely. I like a good debate.

gosh re that economic options post. how brilliant.

To ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Hmm. Or still not talking to each other ...

But enough of hissy fits, petty jealousies and bullying.

My point is that it would be sad if we couldn't work together for the greater good. However, I am sure that enough of us do actually want to stay together, at the moment. I worry about being manipulated by the media and politicians, and really can't see why we have to go through all this.

What it boils down to - the only valid reason for independence imo - is democracy. It's not right that Scotland has to put up with a Tory govt. But neither is it fair for the people of Wales and Northern Ireland, who don't vote Tory either.

So we do need to reform the voting system.

But it's never going to be fair as long as big business have so much power and influence over govt policy - whatever the colour of the party in power. And if you think Salmond will be less in thrall to the banks and vested interests, you've got another think coming. The one thing on Salmond's mind, come independence day, will be how to keep the country afloat. Which he will do by selling it off to the highest bidders - just like the UK government has always done. We won't be more independent, we'll be even less independent than we are now. At least at the moment, unfair as it most definitely is, we can sit and watch while England bears the brunt of Tory austerity.

It leaves a horrible taste in the mouth, but they did at least vote for them.

it's really not about salmond.

I don't understand keeping Britain together for historical reasons - wouldn't it be so much more exciting if Scotland (and Wales for that matter) were proper abroad?

No, you're right, Aitch. It's not about Salmond. Anyone in charge of an independent Scotland would have to do the same.

Charlie, excellent post, I have copied it so can read again.

Yay, Merrymouse. Passports! Border controls! Smuggling! Mixed marriages and illegal immigrants - English refugees from Tory atrocities and human rights abuses south of the border. Border police and tracker dogs. Customs and see-thro scanners. Can't wait.

Maybe we could build a wall ...

Or a wardrobe.

Solopower, what beautiful posts!! Thumbs up!!

And thanks to Charlie for a good explanation of the possible currencies, really appreciated!!

Itsallagoingtobefine, you're always looking at your side. It would be great to see you discuss other views too.

^At the moment Westminster is the big brother, and Scotland is the wee brother. Big brother is pretty selfish, calls all the shots, makes up new rules all the time, takes toys and won't give them back.
All the wee brother can do is continuously whine "its not fair, he huuuurt me"^.

You probably forgot History a lot. Scotland WAS independent for centuries. Scots accepted the union in 1707 (or the Parliament for them), it wasn't forced upon them, nor that "they were bribed for gold" either, that only shows how many people don't know much about their past (at this purpose, have a read at C. Whatley "The Scots and The Union", long book but well done).
They were financially in trouble and the union was economically appealing to Scots, a lot less to English back then.

Honestly, do you really think that a mainly agricultural country as Scotland couldn't end up like Greece? First, I'm pretty sure that here nobody knows how Greece was doing before, second...at this moment Westminster shields you from the Euro-cr@p, what if you had to listen to those guys at Strasbourg all the time? Because from my experience, it's hard when you've to swallow that those are the people who are deciding your destiny. Not you, not the Scots, but those "guys" sitting there.

It won't be about Tories and Westminster anymore, you'll be trapped in the Euro politics.
And my guess is that nobody has a faint idea about what that means.
Westminster, at least in that regard, is doing a huge favour to all the Scots too.

Just a curiosity... Does anyone guess why Salmond chose 2014 for the referendum?

It'd be fascinating if they allowed everyone in the UK to vote on Scottish independence - I suspect there's a racing chance that people who live in England, Wales and Northern Ireland would vote 'yes'.

Merlinscot, I believe he is hoping for a groundswell of patriotism as a result of the Commonwealth Games and what will undoubtedly be a stereotyped and propaganda filled anniversary of bannockburn ..... Just guessing like ;)

You probably forgot History a lot. Scotland WAS independent for centuries. Scots accepted the union in 1707 (or the Parliament for them), it wasn't forced upon them, nor that "they were bribed for gold" either, that only shows how many people don't know much about their past (at this purpose, have a read at C. Whatley "The Scots and The Union", long book but well done).
They were financially in trouble and the union was economically appealing to Scots, a lot less to English back then

Speaking of other viewpoints... :)
Many Commissioners had invested heavily in the Darien Scheme and they believed that they would receive compensation for their losses; Article 15, the Equivalent granted £398,085 10s sterling to Scotland to offset future liability towards the English national debt. In essence, it was also used as a means of compensation for investors in the Darien Scheme.

Even more direct bribery was also said to be a factor.[22] £20,000 (£240,000 Scots) was dispatched to Scotland for distribution by the Earl of Glasgow. James Douglas, 2nd Duke of Queensberry, the Queen's Commissioner in Parliament, received £12,325, the majority of the funding. (Some contend that all of this money was properly accounted for as compensation for loss of office, pensions and so forth not outwith the usual run of government. It is perhaps a debate that will never be set to rest. However, modern research has shown that payments were made to supporters of union that appear not to have been overdue salaries. At least four payments were made to people who were not even members of the Scottish Parliament.) Robert Burns referred to this:

We're bought and sold for English Gold,
Sic a Parcel of Rogues in a Nation.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1707#section_2
However, that is pretty much irrelevant, and all in the past. I believe in looking forward, and while our relationship with rUK may have been beneficial in the past, it is not beneficial now, and is not likely to be in the future.

mainly agricultural country as Scotland
In 2005, total Scottish exports (excluding intra-UK trade) were provisionally estimated to be £17.5 billion, of which 70% (£12.2 billion) were attributable to manufacturing.[146] Scotland's primary exports include whisky, electronics and financial services. The United States, Netherlands, Germany, France and Spain constitute the country's major export markets.[146] Scotland's Gross Domestic Product (GDP), including oil and gas produced in Scottish waters, was estimated at £137.5 billion for the calendar year 2009.[4
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland#section_7

Don't see many sheep there :)

It won't be about Tories and Westminster anymore, you'll be trapped in the Euro politics
This is a good thing. Rather than being dictated to by Westminster we would be in a partnership with other EU countries.

Does anyone guess why Salmond chose 2014 for the referendum
My guess is that he is hoping Bannockburn anniversary/commonwealth games will cause an outpouring of national pride leading to more yes votes.

Itsallagoingtobefine, you're always looking at your side. It would be great to see you discuss other views too

I only ever reply to other posts, obviously as I believe in independence I will present the nats viewpoint as opposed to the Unionists. It would be a pretty poor debate if I just agreed with everything the Unionists said? I have done my own research and what I say is what I think is correct. I do enjoy still learning though, which is why I love posts like charlies currency one.

merlin, who's been teaching you your history?

Most English people will be indifferent as to whether or not Scots get their independence.

i wonder... northerners of my acquaintance seem somewhat gutted to be left to Tory rule. as do welshie chums.

mind you, that doesn't make what you say incorrect, given the population in the south.

Think he's giving it till 2014 to let Cameron complete his own personal 'Yes' campaign. The more disenfranchised and alienated people in Scotland feel under Tory rule, the more likely they are to vote for independence.

I don't want it to split. I love Scotland, but think it would struggle on its own.

I also think it should be more than just the people resident in Scotland who get to decide. At present - it is all one country - Scotland is part of my country. Why don't I get any say in whether my country gets split up (just because I happen to live in the part that isn't proposing to split off) ?

I understand that the rest of the UK is a much bigger population, and without careful thought in the way it is done, non scots would have a bigger voice than scots in a straight one person one vote thing. I do think Scots opinion should have a bigger influence, but I think it totally unfair that the rest of us have no say in it. There is a danger though that a lot of (southern) people would say - I don't care, good riddance too them, without understanding anything of the bigger issues. Would be great if you had to pass some kind of competence test before your vote gets counted (maybe we need that for all elections !!).