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Are you in favour of Scotland leaving the UK?

587 replies

LadyMaryCreepyCrawley · 15/10/2012 18:39

Lucky bastards! Sad

OP posts:
TheLazyGirl · 17/10/2012 14:30

I'm of Scottish heritage from my Dads side, and can truly say, should Scotland gain independence, I'm off back up there pronto.

And, I have to say, why is it that we can happily allow Scotland to vote for this, yet Northern Ireland is now so stuck in the mire, it'll never get Independence.

ByTheWay1 · 17/10/2012 14:40

My mum is 76 and lives in fear of independence... a few questions she keeps asking - which I haven't a clue about - I'm in the Cotswolds and none of the "issues" have had much relevance down here!!

who will be able to have a Scottish passport?

If Scotland do not stay part of the EU, will there be border controls?

If they do stay in EU will she have to use Euros - how does she send a fiver to her grandchildren?
Will my mum have to pay £70 or whatever the equivalent is just to get a bloody passport to come and visit ... ?
would she have to get a UK passport or a Scottish one ?- she is English born but living in Scotland...
would being resident in Scotland count towards her being a Scottish citizen? if not who pays her pension? - she has paid tax in both England and Scotland -

it is the "people" things that worry my 76 year old mum......... not the BIG picture...

if these sort of questions get dismissed as trivial, I can see a lot of pensioners will be voting no....

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/10/2012 15:03

who will be able to have a Scottish passport

Scotland's deputy first minister Nicola Sturgeon, speaking on a BBC Scotland debate programme in January this year, asserted that on the issue of passports, people would have a choice, like in Ireland.

She said: "We would have a Scottish passport. My passport says EU as well as British citizen and that's the point. We've got right of free travel. We can go to Ireland without a passport.

"People who were born here (Scotland), who live here, who've got family relationships here, will have Scottish citizenship and others would be able to apply for citizenships."
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-18364699

If Scotland do not stay part of the EU, will there be border controls

Scotland Forward, a more recent SNP statement on how independence would be shaped, says there would be "no checks or delays" when crossing into England, adding that there would be "no customs posts or demand for passports".

The SNP says: "Scotland will inherit and remain part of the Common Travel Area which has existed between the UK and the Republic of Ireland, and the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey, for many decades, and means that no passports are required to travel across these borders, as at present.

"European and international travel will be subject to the same checks as at present."
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-18364699

If they do stay in EU will she have to use Euros - how does she send a fiver to her grandchildren

Eventually probably, but will retain pound initially. I'm sure grandkids would find getting euros exciting :)

Will my mum have to pay £70 or whatever the equivalent is just to get a bloody passport to come and visit
No, see passport question.

would she have to get a UK passport or a Scottish one ?- she is English born but living in Scotland

I think she would have the choice

would being resident in Scotland count towards her being a Scottish citizen
Yes, if she wants to be.

There are no stupid questions! Ask away, you might not get an answer as there will be loads of stuff to be sorted out before and after independence.

Kentonio · 17/10/2012 15:19

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Most of those answers are the SNP's version of reality. Questions like currency, border controls, EU membership etc require other nation's consent not just wishful thinking on the part of the SNP.

I'd have a lot more respect for them if they were open with people about the potential difficulties of splitting a country off from three centuries of union. Instead we just hear them pretending that with a flick of a pen everything will all be sparkly and wonderful for everyone.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/10/2012 15:31

Kentonio These things will either be in Scotland's remit, or EU. It is deeply unlikely that Scotland would not become an EU member as Scots are already EU citizens, and the EU would find it hard to revoke the citizenship of millions of people.

Therefore, I think the SNP's views stand, and I am sure they will be further developed/challenged/evidenced over the coming months.

Kentonio · 17/10/2012 15:34

ItsAllGoingToBeFine The funny thing about borders is that they have two sides, not just one.

As for the EU, I wonder why Salmond appears to be acting so secretively over the advice he received..

MerlinScot · 17/10/2012 16:33

JackOLantern - I don't live in the central belt. We are surrounded by wind farms. There's an application in for a new one at the moment which will give the community enough money to build a new hospital. Sounds good to me

Sounds bad to us because out of 400 turbines we had half of a whole hospital abandoned. Now, it's the Raigmore in Inverness or nothing. There's an area as big as an American state without counselling services or some other important medical tests that force you to drive for hours to get there, worse in some cases you've to pay for accommodation.

I see that I'm maybe speaking from another Scotland given that nobody cares.

Itsallgoingtobefine, I rarely agree with nationalists because they can only see their part of the advantages and ignore the others whatever they say.

"People who were born here (Scotland), who live here, who've got family relationships here, will have Scottish citizenship and others would be able to apply for citizenships."

So you mean that my future husband, who's born in England and migrated as a baby won't be Scottish. So you mean that if I want to become Scottish I've to pay again (second time) for a Scottish naturalisation. At the cost of 850 £ for all the papers, that seems quite a "nationalist" exclusion of a lot of people who are residents in Scotland.

That's what I fear about independence, that no parties will keep their promises because too expensive (for example, free tuition fees).

JollyJackOLantern · 17/10/2012 16:42

I think I read this paragraph differently to you, Merlin. I read it as meaning:
"People who were born here (Scotland) OR who live here OR who've got family relationships here, will have Scottish citizenship and others would be able to apply for citizenships."

prettybird · 17/10/2012 16:55

That's my understanding too JackOLantern - speaking as a naturalised Scot/UK citizen.

I agree with Kentonio that there are two sides to a border. However, in that case it would suggest that it would be England who was choosing to put in Border Controls Hmm. I suppose that would be their prerogative.

There is a wider issue, which is the continued non signing of the Schengen Agreement by the UK Government, which would allow free movement of all EU citizens ( and EFTA members).

MerlinScot · 17/10/2012 18:35

JackOLantern, you might be right but my understanding of the issue is pointless anyway. Parliament will decide who's going to be Scottish. What's confusing is that whatever they decide.. we'll be in a foreign country, won't we? So it's just disturbing that once there were no borders to get to London, then they'll be there. So I should cross 2 borders only to visit my family (because all air companies don't fly directly from Edinburgh where my family lives or even close).

Prettybird, that's a biased point of view. I guess that once there's independence, the border controls will be put in by both countries. Let's stop with the English-hateful comments already, there's no meaning.
About the 2nd part of your post, I struggle to understand. I always travelled without any problems, so there's always been free movement for EU citizens.

Solopower1 · 17/10/2012 18:47

Whatever anyone says now, or even right up to the final minute before the referendum closes, what happens afterwards is just not possible to predict. The only thing that is certain is that whatever promises are made (in the event of Scotland voting for independence), within a year someone will need to rethink it all, because 'circumstances will have changed'. (Think Clegg and his promise not to raise tuition fees).

This is because a) no-one knows who will be in power then - SNP/Labour/Greens?; b) no-one knows who will be in power in England, or how they will react; and c) no-one knows what the situation in Europe/US/world will be like.

So it's all a game at the moment. We're doing the right thing/only thing we can do: discussing the implications, trying to work out best and worst case scenarios.

The best made plans of mice and men ...

Solopower1 · 17/10/2012 18:49

Imo the chances of independence working for Scotland as far as the economy is concerned, are only 50/50 - though they are at least that.

LadyBeagleEyes · 17/10/2012 19:09

I agree Solopower.
It's impossible for me to decide at the moment.
I need to hear coherent discussion on both sides, without the whole anti/Scottish/English stuff.
To me it's not about that, it's about what I think will be best for me in the long run.
And at the moment a Tory Government isn't doing it for me and never will.

CarolynLiddell · 17/10/2012 19:52

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0liverb0liverbuttface · 17/10/2012 20:18

Go for it - as long as it's total financial and political independence - not make our own rules but the rest of uk fund it.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/10/2012 20:27

oliver total financial and political independence is an impossibility, what is possible is for Scotland to become an equal player internationally.

And of course if independence was chosen there would be no further funding of Scotland from Westminster.

merrymouse · 17/10/2012 20:37

No clue about the financial/economic arguments, but I can see why the Scottish would want independence from a political point of view.

My question is why would the Tories want Scotland to stay part of the UK? If the argument that Scotland does not support itself financially is correct, the rest of the UK would be quids in, and (I assume, but could be wrong), if you get rid of Scotland (which traditionally doesn't vote Tory), the Tories become stronger in the UK.

What exactly is going on here?

CoccoLover · 17/10/2012 20:45

If they want to go for it.

Actually why not do the same for wales then we being "English" would save LOADS of money :P

Less support strain on us let them all do it alone why not :)

Solopower1 · 17/10/2012 20:46

It's not all about money, Merrymouse.

Imagine the loss of prestige for D Cameron and co when they go abroad to meet foreign heads of state. 'I hear you lost Scotland. Bad luck old chap.' Or, if Wales leaves too: 'To lose one country is unfortunate, but to lose two is sheer carelessness'.

Not the sort of thing you want on your CV at all.

CoccoLover · 17/10/2012 20:49

Its not going to look bad on the pm. Why would it. Why the heck should we put up with somthing that does not want to be united together.

I think we should have a vote for independence to you know !! Grin

squoosh · 17/10/2012 20:54

The Tories want Scotland to remain in the Union because it is central to their party's beliefs. Now that there is no British Empire the Union is their next best thing. They see it as the Union v the EU and they will fight tooth and nail against the Independence campaign.

As I said before the last thing David Cameron wants is to be the Tory Prime Minister in office when the Union is dissolved. The Tories would be more forgiving of mass murder. Probably.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo · 17/10/2012 20:54

i'm always confused by the politicians' fondness for the union, given that scotland is such an unholy drag... (by which i mean that it might just be a pile of crap and they don't want to lose the oil).

CoccoLover · 17/10/2012 20:56

Nah don't belive that for a second let them do what they want.

Charlie1972 · 17/10/2012 20:57

Here goes...hope everyone can stay awake...;-)

What are the currency options for an indepednent Scotland?

Basically there are four

(1) joining the euro

(2) keeping the pound, as the SNP now proposes

(3) creating a Scottish pound ? or whatever else you want to call it - but fixing it in value one-to-one with English sterling, as Ireland did after it gained independence

(4) having a Scottish pound that floats on the international exchange markets like the currencies of Sweden, Norway and Denmark.

THE EURO

No one is keen on an independent Scotland joining the euro in its present uncertain form. For a start, the eurozone won?t let you join before a long preparatory period. Second, the euro is in chaos, which would undermine business confidence in an independent Scotland using the euro.
Third, the Scottish electorate are opposed..

KEEPING STERLING

With the euro out of contention, the SNP is proposing that Scotland remain part of a common sterling currency area after independence. The advantages are that it minimises the economic disruption and cost to the economy of creating the new state.

With the euro out of contention, the SNP is proposing that Scotland remain part of a common sterling currency area after independence. The advantages are that it minimises the economic disruption and cost to the economy of creating the new state.
Sharing currencies promotes trade and eliminates exchange costs. What?s not to like? New Zealand was part of a common sterling area for a long period after 1945.

Note that a common sterling area is not the same thing as the status quo. The Bank of England (hopefully with a new name) would not be the central bank of the Rest of the UK (RoUK) but of all the nations using sterling.

These could also include the Republic of Ireland. There is a view gaining ground in that country that if Scotland becomes independent and keeps the pound, Ireland should quit the euro and join the new sterling area.

An independent Scotland would appoint a representative(s) to the ?new? Bank of England?s monetary policy committee (MPC) that sets interest rates.

Recently, David Blanchflower, a former member of the MPC, has said it is ?probably not unreasonable? for an independent Scotland to have this representation. It would even be a good idea under devolution. Currently, the US Federal Open Market Committee, which sets American interest rates, has mandatory representation from its regional affiliates.

Unionists will argue that in any such common currency arrangement the Bank of England, not the Scottish Government, would still set a common interest rate for Scotland and RoUK.

The Bank would remain the body that prints pounds (albeit electronically). By offering to lend these pounds to the financial system, the Bank sets a floor on interest rates throughout the sterling economy. Scottish banks could not undercut the Bank of England interest rate, because it would still be the Bank that provides their financial safety net.

However, as John Swinney, the Scottish financial secretary, has pointed out, that still leaves a lot of scope - far more than under devolution - for independent Scotland to use its tax powers to promote investment, attract foreign capital, advantage particular industrial sectors, or cut VAT to boost consumption.
Swinney?s point was that an independent fiscal policy would trump the austerity currently forced on us by Westminster. Who cares if interest rates are still set by the Bank of England ? we have that anyway.

However, while this is true, there is a risk. The UK has been prone to high inflation as a result of an overheating economy in the South East. This imposed a higher interest rate than was good for Scotland, ending in de-industrialisation. Unless the new, common Bank of England is given a mandate to promote economic growth across the whole British Isles, rather than merely police inflation for the City, the Scottish economy might suffer.

Why would RoUK want to join a common sterling area with Scotland? An independent Scotland with its own separate currency could cause lots of problems for the RoUK economy.

If Scottish interest rates were even a smidgeon above London?s, capital would flood northwards. Remove Scotland?s oil and whisky foreign currency earnings and the RoUK?s trade deficit would be chronic.

Businesses in England hoping to sell to Scotland would also benefit from keeping a common currency. Being part of a common sterling bloc means Scotland would agree to share its foreign currency reserves with RoUK.

In this system, the new Bank of England would also regulate Scottish banks. It would act as ?lender of last resort? to banks north or south of the border, meaning it would provide cheap credit to ensure the banks remained solvent.

There has been some Unionist criticism that this would not be possible as the EU demands each member state regulate its own banks. But all the EU requires is that each member state have a proper regulatory system in place. It would be perfectly possible for this to be the Bank of England, especially as the Bank is undertaking this task already.

What would happen if a bank failed in Scotland? The Scottish Government would be liable for protecting depositors here, even if it was a subsidiary of an English bank. If a bank failed in England, the RoUK Treasury would be responsible for insuring their deposits, even if it was a subsidiary of a Scottish-owned bank.

This is because under European law every bank must be registered to operate in a given country (i.e. take local deposits). That country?s authorities are then responsible for insuring their own depositors, even if it is technically a foreign bank.

Thus if Santander fails, the UK Treasury would cover British depositors in Santander?s UK subsidiary. (Incidentally, had RBS failed under an independent Scotland, the English Treasury would have been legally bound to aid English depositors, not the Scottish taxpayer.)

That said, after Scottish independence, in the event of a bank failing which had major operations on both sides of the Scottish-RoUK border, one would expect a joint rescue operation by both governments, in the interests of maintaining confidence in the financial system. (People forget there was a similar multinational rescue of Foris by the Benelux countries.)

One objection raised to having a common sterling area is that Scotland would have to accept common fiscal controls as well. In other words, the Scottish Government would have to accept voluntary limits on its borrowing.

A similar fiscal compact is being introduced in the eurozone after the Greek crisis. Unionists ask why Scotland should bother with independence if it means having not just interest rates but also public spending determined from outside?

But this is a distortion of what would actually apply. The fiscal rules in the eurozone, and in any future sterling area, are to stop governments borrowing more than they can pay back (as with Greece)

This is a perfectly sensible rule, which one hopes Scotland would keep to anyway, even if it were not in a sterling bloc with England. And for the record, remember it was Gordon Brown who plunged the UK into unsustainable public debt, so voting against independence hardly guarantees national solvency.

Even under the fiscal stability rules of a common sterling area, the Scottish Government would set its own budget priorities. The amount it could borrow safely would actually be governed by Scotland?s rate of economic growth ? the more growth, the greater the tax revenues, the more you can afford to borrow.

A SCOTTISH POUND FIXED TO STERLING

What if RoUK refused to accept a common sterling currency with an independent Scotland, despite the benefits on both sides? The fundamental problem for the SNP is that there is no guarantee the RoUKers will see sense, even if they are cutting off their sterling nose to spite their economic face.

In that case, the next option would be to have a separate Scottish pound, issued by the Scottish monetary authorities, but which had exactly the same value as the English pound.

Thus a pound Scots and a pound English would have exactly the same value and be interchangeable. This was the policy adopted by Ireland when it first became independent. This arrangement would make trade simple.

How do you keep the Scottish pound and the English pound exactly the same value as each other?
Step one: a new Scottish Central Bank issues Scottish pounds which would be the sole legal tender in Scotland. However, banks and businesses requiring Scottish pounds would buy them from the Scottish central bank in return for sterling.

Thus the total of Scottish pounds in circulation is backed by a reserve of sterling to an equivalent amount. If there is 1 billion pounds Scots in circulation, it is backed by 1 billion pounds English at the Scottish Central Bank. So anyone with a pound Scots knows they can go to the Scottish Central Bank and swap it for a pound English

A Scottish pound fixed against sterling has many of the advantages of a full sterling currency union, plus a degree of flexibility. In particular, the Scottish Central Bank, not the Bank of England, would be lender of last resort to the Scottish Government and banks. As Scotland?s sterling reserves accumulate, they can be lent in the sterling money markets to earn interest.

However, it would still mean that Scotland needed to keep the same interest rates as RoUK. Higher interest rates would suck in capital from England, expanding the Scottish money supply and causing inflation. A rise in RoUK interest rates would normally force the Scottish authorities to raise rates in parallel, to stop capital flowing to London, which could hurt growth.

AN INDEPENDENT SCOTTISH POUND

The smaller European economies that weathered the 2008 credit crunch and recession were those with independent currencies. They had the ability to devalue, boost their money supply and control their own interest rates. Sweden reacted instantly to the downturn with a remarkable injection of quantitative easing from its central bank ? unlike eurozone members who can?t print their own euros. As a result, Swedish GDP is back where it was in 2008, before the downturn.

The smaller European economies that weathered the 2008 credit crunch and recession were those with independent currencies. They had the ability to devalue, boost their money supply and control their own interest rates. Sweden reacted instantly to the downturn with a remarkable injection of quantitative easing from its central bank ? unlike eurozone members who can?t print their own euros. As a result, Swedish GDP is back where it was in 2008, before the downturn.

The problem with setting up an independent currency is the disruption, transition costs and impact on business confidence in the short run. There is also a problem in establishing credibility in the bond markets. This makes going for a separate currency a hard choice.

A more likely scenario, in the event of RoUK rejecting a sterling union, is that Scotland creates a Scottish pound fixed to the English pound. But then after a matter of years ? probably if RoUK interest rates become too high ? abandons the fixed exchange rate and lets the Scottish pound float.

CONCLUSION

The No camp will hide behind calls for ?more details? on the currency issue. In fact, the basic position is quite clear: a common sterling area is simple, helps business and is good for both Scotland and RoUK

.
The No camp will hide behind calls for ?more details? on the currency issue. In fact, the basic position is quite clear: a common sterling area is simple, helps business and is good for both Scotland and RoUK.

But those who oppose Scottish independence might well reject a sterling solution out of political spite, even though this goes against the long-term interests of the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland

Solopower1 · 17/10/2012 21:01

I wouldn't want it on my conscience. What a huge failure it would represent if Scotland did split. Like two quarrelsome siblings sulking in their own bedrooms rather than playing Monopoly together in the sitting room.

No. United we stand. We still have far more in common than differences. Really, we do.

Anyone called Fraser, Munro, Johnson, Campbell, Cameron, Blair, Brown, Ferguson, Ogg, Scott, Darling (half the present and past Government ministers in fact) south of the border wouldn't have to look far for their Scottish forebears. Anyone with reddish hair? Anyone whose feet start tapping when they hear the bagpipes. Anyone who likes fried Mars bars ...