Norman Kember-honourable and brave or a bit of a pompous arse??

[moondog]

I'm plumping for the latter.....

MB,you're right. It is possible to be both.
I've no doubt at all that this is a good deeply religious man,and Bruce Kent made the point a while back that a man in the sunset of his life is better suited to this sort of task than say someone with a young family.

Give me a pompous arse who is ALSO honourable and brave any day !

Who would you rather have sitting next to you at a dinner party ?

1. Tony and Cherie - 2 dimensional cardboard cut outs who are pompous arses yet PRETEND to be religious and honourable (having had the misfortune of actually meeting her once at a lawyer's do I can confirm the woman is a total bore despite her career credentials)

1. someone like NK who has real life experiences and who may actually be a very interesting person to talk to ?

What does 'real life experiences' mean in yuor book koolkat?

blimey moondog - don't tell me you're softening!

To be realistic I think that he was totaly daft to put himself (an the people who had to go and rescue him) in so much danger. But them which of us has never made an arse of ourselves?

I would also question how much 'good' he did for the risk and worry that ended up being extended on him. As a comotted christian, why no just pray for a better resolution...he must belive that it has an effect since he thanked those who had prayed for him.

If he does it again then he is a bloody fool!

Bit like you last night then eh JT??
(Had you laid into the cooking sherry??)

I have just come in from a wonderful supper out with dh and the kids. Fantastic river side inn, beautiful 'unfussy' food. Far too much wine.

Fuck me, but I'm mellow now!!!!!!!!

I just think anyone is crazy who puts themselves in a dangerous situation (so totally agree with that point) but once they've done it, then get kidnapped by, let's face it, zealous madmen - I certainly wouldn't say 'serves em right' - I mean if he'd entered the egg and spoon race at 70-odd and fell and broken his leg I might have said 'serves him right' but not being kidnapped

Oooh,you'll have a fuzzy head later though......

I'd rather not mb, if you don't mind .....

hollow legs , me!

I have a year 9 test to mark tonight so I had better sober up a bit

I don't know JT
I think it is a valid point
I mean he can work the risks out for himself
run the egg and spoon race = might fall over and hurt your knee
go off to a war zone = might get kidnapped
the stakes are higher for sure.
I am not at all sure what he intended to achieve. I think there is some very fuzzy thinking going on. What is the end game of the peace campaigners? withdrawal of troops? would that bring peace? if so, surely he needs to be campaigning to put pressure on the governments involved rather than in the war zone.
or is it to improve the lot of the Iraqi people? if so, I would have thought the fastest route to that would be to support the democratic process and campaign against the religious extrremists in the country who make life so dangerous and difficult for their fellow Iraqis.
or perhaps to aise money to help Iraqis in need.
of course none of these things gets your name in the papers and they are all a bit more complicated than campaigning for "peace."
I don't have much confidence in people who bandy about the word " peace " in this context. War is a bad thing, and so is death. No shit. I don't need Saatchi and Saatchi or even Norman Kember to tell me that.

moondog - real life experiences would include actually having first hand experience of a war.

Intelligent, honourable, rational people who have seen the devastation and loss of life caused by war tend not to talk out of their back sides when it comes down to making decisions about starting wars, esp. when the war is against international law.

The last time Bush and Blair and their families were involved in a real war was when they played a computer game called "Let's bomb those F*ing Ayrabs [sic] - any Ayrabs even those not directly involved in 9/11"

I haven't got a clue what Kember is like as a person or why he went to Iraq. But I tend to have more sympathy for people who despise wars. It is none of my business or any one else why he is a peace activist. If that is what he wants to do with his life, let him do it.

As for putting soldiers' lives in danger. That is a very very silly argument. I think you need to be questioning Bush, Blair at al as to how they can justify murdering thousands of women and children in Iraq and putting the lives of British/US soldiers at risk.

You are questioning the motives of the wrong people.

I don't thnk that Kember had a real life experience of war before he went though, did he?

He was, IIRC a CO in the last war.

MB - I wasn't suggesting he did. I was making an entirely different point.

OK, i've got a little lost in the twists this thread has taken

What is the endgame of the peace campaigners. Well, peace I suppose. "so, surely he needs to be campaigning to put pressure on the governments involved rather than in the war zone." I guess the logic of these groups is that just by being there, they put pressure on their governments. More than one way to skin a cat and all that. I don't know whether they're right or not - I have no idea what effect their campaigning has on governments, but I suppose that's their thinking.

koolkat,well it sounds exactly like you were suggesting NK had first hand experience of a war.
He doesn't,but Blair does,whatever you think of him.

I am questioning NK's motives-noone else's.
That is something for another thread.

If I was being rude I would suggest that you are talking through your arse,but I'm not so I won't.

Remarkably convenient that General Sir Mike Jackson was available to comment to the BBC on NK's supposed ingratitude. He's not available to the media that often. Surely the Number 10 spin machine can't have lined up a story in case NK used his release to promote his anti-war agenda?

Just a thought

Good point Dannie.
Although do you think that NK would have considered it tasteful to comment on the war so soon after being released by the military in any case??

'Pray to God sailor, and row for the shore' and all that.

How ironic if the prayers were answered by the action of men in uniform, eh?

Dannie I think you may have hit the nail on the head.

We live in a democracy, which is what we aspire to for Iraq. Threfore, people who oppose the war like NK have the same right to do so as people who have chosen the military for a career have to do their jobs. NK was doing his job, the soldiers were doing theirs. Both are important. But suggesting that people opposing an illegal war are in some way a PITA is not democratic. And sets a bad example to the poor bloody Iraqis, to whom we keep saying how wonderful democracy is.

Now I have to go and chase children into bed, cos it's unbelievably late, whatever time you think it is

moondog - yes saying to someone that they talk through their arse is rather rude.

I think you are rather rude, and you are trying to provoke me to be rude to you, but I won't bother !

I think Mr Blair (and his co-warmongers) does talk through his arse, if he can find it, that is.

Blair doesn't have experience of war - he has experience in sitting on his backside sending other people to war - rather different.