"absolutely acceptable to leave a child"

[prufrock]

Has anyone else read the unbelievable story about the English couple arrested in NY because they left their 4 month old in a locked car by herself whilst they went into a shopping centre? Their defence is that the Americans have blown this out of all proportion because it is completely culturally acceptable to do this in Great Britain!

There is a hotel near where I live with big glass windows. It is very popular with local mums who go there specifically so they can leave their sleeping babies in the car outside within view of the restaurant.

This story sounds completely overblown to me.
I would not have left my baby under those circumstances but by the sound of things would get arrested by US standards ever week.

Evansmum I too walked about a mile to school ( we lived in a small town) either alone or with other kids right from the start of primary school in the late 60s.It's incredible to think of now.

My mum left me at the end of the garden in my pram every day - unless it was raining when I was left in the garage. It was what you were told to do. She also left me in the pram outside shops. They had the big silver-cross prams then, you'd never have got that in the local corner shop. It's bad enough trying to negociate our local Spa with a pushchair. (I speak from bitter experience having demolished a carefully-stacked mountain of larger cans the other day.)

I do leave ds1 and ds2 in the car when paying for petrol, as it's easier and, to my mind, safer than trying to get the pair of them across the forecourt when it's busy. I wouldn't leave them in a supermarket carpark, or anywhere where I was gone for more than a couple of minutes, or where I couldn't see them. I think the media (good or bad) is the reason why we're more careful these days. If you read about two poor kids perishing in a car fire on their driveway, then it makes you think twice about leaving yours there. Otherwise it might not even occur to you there was any danger.

I have read this thread and just decided to post. The last post reminded me of when dd was tiny and i went to a local corner shop with a big pram,(the huge lie back thing like Silver Cross) i was asked not to wheel it around the aisles!! I just give a filthy look and did anyway whilst muttering about "expect me to leave baby outside in the cold", (There was no-one else in the shop i hasten to add so i was not obstructing anyone!). Anyway, i have to admit i have left dd in the car whilst paying for petrol once or twice and i could see her and she could see me and i locked the car! I also leave used to do an hours gardening while she had her afternoon nap, surely that's not the same!(i had alarm on hip)
I think this couple are bang out of order,(have not read all posts if i repeat something!). I think yes, one of them run in to loo but surely leave an adult with the baby. If the baby had woken would have been so scared!,(Not to meation any of the other dangers), As someone else said, gives Brits a bad name for saying it's the done thing here!

A couple of months ago my DH was in our town centre when he passed a car with a baby in it, traffic warden beside the car, 40 minutes later he was returning, passed the same car, baby still in it to see the mother (or presumably the mother) being arrested. So it's certainly not culturally acceptable in this part of the country.

I do leave the kids in the car while I pay for petrol as I feel this is safer and I do leave them in the house while I hang out washing or sit in the garden (DS1 outside with me, DS2 sleeping). I must confess to once leaving them when I nipped into a corner shop and I will never do it again, I bumped the car up on the kerb outside the shop but I could not see the car from inside the shop, I had one item to purchase and by the time I came back to the car (2 mins perhaps) DS2 had woken up and was in a state, screaming his head off, plus I was beating myself up about what could of happened. Rationally I don't think they were in any danger but I have a vivid imagination . IMO on the surface of the story (obviously we don't know the full details) the couple in America were wrong.

Angeliz, you get alot of that round here, especially in the small shops, many people (usually of the older generation) don't understand why we have to bring prams and babies into shops. There are certain shops in our town that I don't go into with the kids because I know from experience the place is too tightly packed to manouvre a pram and with all the dirty looks and tut-tutting just isn't worth it.

I think Dementd that it was probably a shoplifting issue too! I was in M+S the other day with said pram (but with seat on now) and i had good and previous shopping and needed to take dd to loo! I went in disabled to get pram in and a very red faced assistant told me i couldn't take pram in! I do understand that, but told her she had to watch it QUICK

btw, where are you abouts Demented?

I'm in a medium sized town in Scotland, older people, presumably grandparents will still leave babies/toddlers in prams/pushchairs while they go into the Bakers or Butchers here, IMO it's not on, I wonder if the parents of the children know what it happening. What you have said about the loo has made me think. There is a certain shop in the town that I tend to pop into if I need the loo (they have a disabled loo big enough to take the pram into, I feel a bit guilty about using a disabled loo mind you), I always have a look at the kids clothes first so they don't just think I am making use of the facilities. I hope no-one thinks I'm shoplifting.

About leaving the children in the car... I have a cousin who crashed her mother's car when she was four (removed the hand brake and went down the hill); a friend's daughter was killed when her older sister (a 2y old) changed the gear of an automatic car that was inside a garage, the younger one was walking around the car and couldn't avoid the car even though it was moving very slowly.

Some years ago one of my coworkers, had to go to the store that was two blocks from her house, the children were 7 and 8 and were very active, she had grew in a very dangerous city and locked the door after her. The children started playing with matches and something caught fire, they got scared and hide under the bed. When she came back 15 min later both children had suffocated.

stupidgirl,
I can quite understand why you would worry about a 6 year old walking home from school alone and believe me I thought long and hard about it before I allowed ds to do it.
I decided to for the following reasons: 1) v short distance - literally across road at crossing then just round corner; 2) lollipop man knows all the kids (and parents) who uses his crossing and keeps an eye out for them; 3) lots of other kids/parents about - ds usually walks round with a couple of his friends. Also, the first few times he did it, I left work early and watched surrepticiously (sp?) to make sure he was all right.
In the end it's a v personal decision and much depends on your child and the area you live in etc.
By the way, I personally would never leave a baby/child alone in a car in a supermarket car park but I would in a petrol station or outside a small shop, provided I could see them at all times and it was only for a couple of minutes.

Sorry Sue, didn't mean to alarm you. I'm just outside Zurich !

case dismissed!

My first babies were born in the 70's and I always left them in their pram outside shops, although not the supermarket. Most shops, bakers, butchers, PO etc were pretty small, so you could usually see the pram. I'm also astonished to recall that ds1 took himself to school on his own at 5.5yrs!!! We lived in a remote part of Scotland and all the children went on their own (although in fact they used to call on each other and walk together). It seems unbelievable and I wouldn't dream of it now.

Dh's sister was kidnapped when she was 3yo. They were shopping and she had let go of mummy's hand. Next thing they knew, she'd gone. She was found a few hours later with a well-known 'loony' as they were called in those days. Unsurprisingly, FIL always fussed and fussed about us keeping reins on our boys.

There was also no need for this couple to have left their child unnattended; the reason they gave was that their 3 year old had a bladder infection and needed to go to the tiolet urgently. they were gone so long because it took them a long time to find the tiolets. but if that was the only reason, why did BOTh parents have to accompany child to the tiolet? One could have stayed with the baby. The mother also said it had been blown out of all proportion 'imagine this happening in the car park at Sainsbury's' as if most people WOULD consider that acceptable. I think the 'cultural' thing was simply a cunning ruse by their defence lawyers, and that the poor baby is probably alone in the car in a multi-storey car park right now.

I think to a great extent it depends on where you live. We also live in a small Scottish village and I often leave DS2 in his pram to sleep outside in the garden 'to get some fresh air'. On weekday mornings there are always a couple of prams or pushchairs outside the shops on the Main Street with sleeping babies in. We had friends for lunch last Sunday and they left their asleep toddler in the car seat until he woke up (the dining room looks out on to the driveway). DS1 has walked to school on his own since he was seven (now nearly ten) and at weekends will go into the village on his own to see if his friends are in (we give him a time to come back and know who he is planning to visit). His friends work on the same basis - as they enter your house they tell you when they need to leave. He will also go down the shop for me if I run out of milk or something. I know that my sister in England would not give her children this sort of freedom, and we are very lucky in where we live. Basically, this is one of the main reasons we live where we do.

I agree Libra. I also live in Scotland and it seems to me that children here are, rightly or wrongly, given more freedom than their English counterparts.

Blu, there was a 3rd child too.

3-y-o with bladder infection was screaming, 2-y-o was also howling, baby was asleep - I can imagine that in their heads they could get the 2 older ones to the loo and back in less time than it would have taken to get the baby out and get the buggy out while simultaneously controlling 2 hysterical toddlers. As it was they were back at the car in 5-7 minutes.

NY newspaper report.

I have to admit that I do leave ds2 in the car seat, strapped in, while I drop ds1 at nursery. Initially I'd take them both in, but the departure from my v clingy ds1 was getting more and more stressy for him... cuddles and goodbye, only to stay longer chasing ds2 round the room cos he wanted to stay too! Then the paddy because he couldnt! Now ds2 is happy with a book and ds1 has a special solo moment with mummy! It is off street parking, and I do lock the car, but have been thinking twice since this case. If I stop at the local village shop on the way back from somewhere, ds1 often asks to stay in the car with ds2. They are both strapped in while I pop into the shop. Think I'll stop this tho' as ds1 can now undo his buckle.
I have always been happy to leave ds1 and ds2 asleep indoors while outside, wouldnt think twice about this as I have a monitor to warn me of trouble. Having said that I do know someone who set fire to her bedroom by leaving her hairdryer on a chair during a power cut, switched on. Baby asleep in next door room. Friend out in the garden. Scary, but all fine in the end.

Has there been an outcome on the case?

honeybunny, they got a conditional discharge - after 6 months they are clear. Click on the link in my message below!

Thanks Janh... missed that!