4 sisters returned to Italian father after their Australian Mum took them to Australia.....dragged kicking and screaming onto the plane.

[AmberLeaf]

Apparently the girls aged between 9-15 are dual citizens.

Link sorry its the DM.

Do they not take the childs view into account in Australia?

ltevedallas, i dont understand your post. If you dont know why i disbeleive DA in that case after reading my last few posts then i think youre..lol i won't say.
what is " hectoring" btw?

"I agree that she broke the law in taking them, but as I have said all along from the start of this thread, if there was DV then I can understand her actions."

why would DV legitimise her actions amber...they had seperated by the time the children were stolen. Are you aware of that?

why would DV legitimise her actions amber

I haven't said it would legitimise her actions. I said I could understand them given the circumstances of DV.

they had seperated by the time the children were stolen. Are you aware of that?

Umm yes I am aware of that, Didnt I just post something indicating it was his violence that was the catalyst for their separation in 2007.

you posted something that said the mother alleges violence, which is what happens quite a lot. sometimes its real, sometimes its not.

it doesn't matter whats posted though..you have this " opinion"...and it ain't going anywhere.

I think the mother is now paying for her actions, I think the children are paying for her actions, i think the people are paying the mother as usual and i think its very hard for people to believe something they don't want to believe.

c'est la vie

it doesn't matter whats posted though..you have this " opinion"...and it ain't going anywhere Same to you.

You keep posting new things and ignoring my previous replies to you! very odd.

amber, you lost me a few posts ago.
before you go to bed tonight, take a good look at the word fact on the document i provided for you. You'll sleep better.
i firmly believe the mother had neither legal nor moral grounds for what she did.
you'd like to think that you're trying to find some moral high ground for the mothers actions, but all i see is a person who is trying to get some kind of revenge, by proxy..on this italian man. sounds weird i know, but hey, we live in a weird world.
On my part, im worried about those kids as i can only see more pain for them. they've been identified and named ( by the mother herself ), and the mother may face a very public prosecution which will hurt the children.
revenge? hug it tight tonight amber, see if it keeps you warm.

if the mother isn't prosecuted, it may encourage more families to suffer. if the mother is prosecuted, then these children suffer more.
the world can be such a sad place

Not sure why I lost you, i've been clear and haven't rambled..........

revenge? hug it tight tonight amber, see if it keeps you warm

Sorry? what?

amber, you're not sure but i am..almost.
ok..enough for now. ill come back here later or tomorrow.

?? How bizarre?

Ummm? okaay

Bizarre indeed!

Amber, ( and all the other blindfolded girls out there ) I think you have a wounded psyche, and you NEED to feel as if this man, this italian man physically hurt the mother as you have been physically hurt in the past in order for you to get some kind of revenge.( as you hope she does in some way ) in essence you are placing yourselves in that mothers shoes . thats why no amount of logic means anything to you. this whole thing is an opportunity for some kind of revenge. you identify yourselves with victims of domestic violence. this conclusion i have reached is logical after considering your posts. bizarre? possibly...but its what i think. Sue me.

ltevedallas, i uh, wish you the best and another seven joyous years here.

Ha ha ha! Nice try Hannah, but im afraid you are barking up the wrong tree.

No man, Italian or otherwise has physically hurt me in that way.

I don't identify with victims of domestic violence, I empathise there is a very big difference!

Oh and im not a 'girl' I am a 38 year old woman .........i'm not blindfolded either!

So, no, your conclusion is utterly illogical

semantics...

and im not convinced amber. you are wounded.

ok im going for now, lovely chatting etc back tomorrow.

Hannah, you really aren't very nice, are you?

I certainly emphasise with victims of Domestic Violence, yes. Most decent human beings do. Why do you see that as a bad thing?

Just because I am not ready to see the man in this case as a saint that has done nothing wrong does not mean I want 'revenge' on men. There are some lovely male posters on MN whose views I respect. There is one male poster on her that was treated terribly by his DW and I sympathise greatly with his situation. I have spent the whole of my adult life working with men, and have many more male friends than female - I am just as able to tell them when they are being wankers as I would if they were female.

If the situation in this case was reversed. If it was the man that took the children to Australia, I would feel exactly the same. I am confident in my views and my actions and my posts speak for themselves regarding my views. You want to see something in them that is just not there.

I don't care if you're convinced or not Hannah. I'm not actually trying to convince you of anything!

This has nothing to do with DV. She broke the law. There are ways to deal with DV issues once you are divorced in Italy. The girls could have recorded it on their phones but that does not mean they can be removed from Italy.

The Australian judgment protects us all and our children and we salute the Australian courts for their stance.

I hope Hannah is lying down in a cool dark room somewhere

Exactly what Xenia said at 14:49:37

If you can?t make your point without denigrating other posters then that reflects badly on you. This is a visceral argument, and the side you take depends on your inherent biases, which we all have. It?s basically a male-female debate. I know one of the regular father-defenders often alludes to how her own mother also lied to keep her in the family home. Our own feelings of our mothers and fathers will naturally intrude on this. It would be an interesting psychological experiment to poll each of us and ask where our gut feelings lie: mother/father.

As this thread has unfolded, and with the release of the austlii paper, I now believe the father just does what he damn well pleases. I no longer believe he?s basically a decent man as I originally said. As to the mother?s connivances, who of you wouldn't do the same thing under the circumstances?

I wonder how many whacks to the head are acceptable. My view, concerning relationships, is one whack you?re out. Maybe the mother in this case took the same view. So what does she do? We have graduates in this country who can?t get a job. She?s a foreigner in Italy and just walks into a house and job? How can she argue for shared custody in Italy if she can?t support them?

So the father is a fine dad as long as he keeps his violence, controlling nature and mental issues at bay? Wouldn't it be more truthful to accept that maybe he?s not that fine a dad?

I don?t respect a lot of the mother?s manipulations, and frankly some of them were stupid. But I understand her desperation. If she wanted to keep her daughters there wasn't anything else she could have done and to stay in a marriage like this is unthinkable.

cool and dark...and lovely, thankyou.

lteve, the word you are struggling with is actually empathise. ( empathize wherever they butcher the english language )
In some kind of Irony, your use of this tends to confirm that you also have suffered in this way.
The word both amber and lteve should have probably used is sympathise.
why the english lesson? it may lead to less confusion for us down the track.
Duty beckons girls and I have so much to do, enjoy your day wherever you are.

So far, having read a lot on this, I have come to the conclusion that the father may have done some not very nice stuff, and the mother has definitely done some not very nice stuff.

I have a lot of respect for the Australian judge who, against public opinion, made a decision based on the facts before him that the children would not be in any danger if returned to Italy, ensured as far as possible that the mother could return to Italy, and also sent out a strong message that child abduction is not to be tolerated, thus allowing many parents (mostly mothers, but some fathers too) to sleep better at night.

As I have no access to much of the so-called evidence of various aspects alleged by the mother, and having no reason to disbelieve the judge, tend to believe him, and thus agree with their return.

It's just a pity that the mother made it so traumatic for them .

And she didn't have to stay in the marriage, by the way. She was living separately from him, he was financing where she was living and she had a job, while she and here ex-husband shared custody of the girls. She could have stayed in Italy - it was probably not as financially beneficial (as she would have less access to government benefits) but it was possible to stay.

She just didn't want to.

segue, you seem failry sure the mother was " whacked" ..why?

The game that mothers play whereby they just accuse DV and the Court favours them is an old one. To convince you all here that this game exists
I would consider would be like selling rice to the chinese.

Colin Forrest believes the mother..Australian family law has been plagued by Judges believing the same thing for decades.

Why do YOU believe the mother?

Why do you say the father does as he damn well pleases?

the point is, the strong point i rely on is that the mother has no evidence.
there is no evidence to examine.
there are no photos etc.
its ok of course to take sides..but why on earth would anyone ' back' the mother?
because she's female?