George Osborne Gets Booed Handing Medals at the Paralympic Athletics Medal Ceremony

[ttosca]

The nation boos at the Tory scum:

There are none so smug as those who claim the rewards of others' investment in them as the merit of their own determination.

Exactly Dawndonna, that's why I'm just reading with the occasional brief comment. I have nothing much to contribute as my experiences with my own disability and such don't relate to your country.

Xenia: If I had a severely disabled child, I wouldn't want a stranger to be taking care of them. It's not like childcare. Often the severely disabled can be easily frightened and need the comfort of routine.

Plus the cost of such a carer would surely negate working as they'd have to be live in? (Genuine question.)

If it makes you feel better to insult others and call them patronising and rude when you are wilfully misunderstanding (because you can't come up with a cogent response) what they are saying, then that says more about your lack of character and manners than mine. My life is very full and very satisfying by the way.

Name calling is best left in the playground, along with the bullies.

Sammy you've been extremely rude, you've just done it in an extremely passive way.

People in glass houses and all that jazz.

I'm all ears as to examples of where I have been rude?

Xenia in the real world a lot of fathers do share the care, they might be the main bread winner, then come home and share in the care.
I also know some who are the main carer whilst the mother works.
I am afraid your posts seem to be coloured by your veiw of men.
as for employing foreign people to work for you as carers, that is not only rather racist, but what about the language barrier. for a person who already might have a language barrier due to their disability does not need another one.
also caring isn't just about lifting and washing/feeding someone.
it is much more than that, that is way family are normally best placed to provide care.

Lots of women who earn a lot with disabled children have carers they pay for.

Which is a choice they have made Xenia, just like we all make choices in life based on our given set of circumstances. I can't afford to pay for care out of my wage and my husband wouldn't be able to either I wouldn't suppose as it's so specialised. But it all depends on the level of disability anyway. I have compromised my career, I personally don't think it matters whether I am a woman or a man tbh, someone has to look after our daughter and my husband got paid more at the time so it was me and I think you will find that's what most people do. I actually think I am the best person to care about my daughter anyway and have her best interests at heart and retain her dignity as she is a very vulnerable young woman, how you judge my standing in society because of that doesn't really interest me but it's very telling that is is seen as a lesser role earlier in the thread because of lack of economic input through paid employment, and now for letting down the womanhood.

sammypawsThu 06-Sep-12 11:01:04

Well, foodunit I would say that there is a fair proportion claiming benefits saying they are incapable of anything when they are probably capable of something with support - or are you telling me that the population has become substantially sicker since the introduction of these benefits

Sammypaws some of it is due to advances in medical science. People whose conditions would have killed them years ago are surviving longer.
Ditto babies born with cartain illnessses and conditions. A friend of mine has a son with Coffin Lowery syndrome. She was told by the doctor when he was born in 1989 that if he had been born 20/30 years earlier he wouldnt have survived.

But i get the feeling that is what youd prefer.

The basic feminist point is that the more often women give up work to care and men don't you reinforce a pattern which works its way right up to our pathetic number of successful women surgeons, top judges, the Cabinet never mind the Cof E which bars you from the top because you have a vagina.

If it makes you feel better to insult others and call them patronising and rude when you are wilfully misunderstanding (because you can't come up with a cogent response) what they are saying, then that says more about your lack of character and manners than mine. My life is very full and very satisfying by the way.

Name calling is best left in the playground, along with the bullies.
Yep. Now, fuck off. I don't do silly and superior.
Oh, and as an academic, I'm well aware of the cogent arguments presented on this thread. I haven't seen yours.
Now, bored, shan't bother anymore because I refuse to engage in your childish yah, boo, sucks game.

I never would have been a top surgeon anyway Xenia, so you can rest easy on that one and just think of me as pathetic because I chose to love and care for someone and yes, I made that sacrifice, but I made it for her not for my husband or his career

In a sense the whole thread is about rudeness. No one ought to condone the booing of anyone at the Olympics even if you disagree with their views.

"The nation boos at the Tory scum".. The thread said. only the left with their limited vocabulary and brains presumably has to be reduced to insults because they always lose the rational argument. Labour was voted out, thank goodness. The nation did its booing them through the ballot box, the politer way to boo.

Very, very interesting points here, FoodUnit:

In reality, tories believe that the state should be small, that charities, religious groups and workhouses/prisons should replace welfare, and that in the main, genuine need is actually a bit of a phantom that will disappear if you say it doesn't exist.

All this 'genuine v scroungers' ideology is just propaganda prepping people to have welfare and the NHS (and all other aspects of the state) dismantled in front of their eyes, in order reduce the reach of the elected government (therefore people power) to control the actions of the privileged and wealthy. Its tories doing what tories do. Heartless, smug self-interest and disdain for the disadvantaged.

This is the crux (and it does get back to Mrs Thatcher's 'there is no such thing as society' interview):

1. Of COURSE the weakest in society must be cared for. This is absolutely not in dispute by anybody

(although as FUnit implies, it is strongly believed that conservatives don't care. This is simply not true).

1. But: who should provide that wealth redistribution, and how? THIS is the point of debate.

1. Should it be the state, OR should it be the local community?

1. HOW should that wealth redistribution, happen?

By the way, Food Unit: 'genuine v scroungers' isn't an ideology. It is a true economic and policy dilemma, called 'moral hazard'. Moral hazard is a big, big problem in state redistribution. This isn't up for argument, it is fact.

Why shouldn't welfare be dismantled? See point 4.
Why shouldn't the NHS be dismanted? See point 4.

Please don't get excited and fall into the trap of accusing me of being evil/not caring etc etc. Think about what I might be saying. These are really, really important points that Britain should be debating. We should be talking about these things and our spineless, lying politicians THE WHOLE LOT OF THEM are too scared to talk about them. But be in no doubt it's happening behind closed doors.

SammyPaws - you didn't actually answer my question. Your 'dependency' is presumably on a partner who earns or owns enough money to support the whole family? I would also hope that a 6 figure salary would have enabled you to build up some savings and resources before you gave up paid work.

My in-laws live in a benefit-free country and I can confirm that in families where the main breadwinner becomes ill or disabled the whole family end up penniless and starving and children die.

By malingerers, I think in any case that it is possible that you are confusing incapacity benefits and disability benefits. (Not that I am saying people on incapacity benefit are malingerers, but disabled peolpe do not 'malinger' - and the DLA application is too stringent to allow malingering or faking)

There is an enormous movement of disabled people fighting for the right to WORK, to fulfill their role as citizens to the capacity of thier potential, to have access equal opportunities and a level playing field (which includes provision for transport and access equipment etc) in order NOT to 'malinger'. This is the root of the anger felt by people connected with the world of disability, not a mindset of wanting to cling to the ability to 'malinger'.

Sammy, I'm sure you're not an idiot and can see where you've been rude. I usually posted after your comments. Those ones.

I'm not interested in fighting with you. You're passive aggressive and I find that extremely off putting. Just come out and say what you actually think instead of the childish 'wow, you do have a problem,' 'yawn,' etc etc.

I will continue reading as this is a very educational thread.

Dawn, you've made some very interesting points.

In reality, tories believe that the state should be small, that charities, religious groups and workhouses/prisons should replace welfare.

Religious groups should replace government issued welfare? You're kidding right?

Workhouses? Prisons for people on welfare?! Why??? If that is genuinely what your political party believes, that's fucking terrifying.

There is an enormous movement of disabled people fighting for the right to WORK, to fulfill their role as citizens to the capacity of thier potential, to have access equal opportunities and a level playing field (which includes provision for transport and access equipment etc) in order NOT to 'malinger'. This is the root of the anger felt by people connected with the world of disability, not a mindset of wanting to cling to the ability to 'malinger'

and in the meantime the government decide to sell of remploy

Xenia - I do agree about the role of women as carers in all this. It is a self-perpetuating circle. The woman earns the lower salary so she is the one who gives up work when disability or other significant care need raises it's head. When i talked about reducing my contract by 50% when DS needs cnstant support that is because DS does the same - we take equal time off to cover all appointments etc.

We are both equally committed to our roles in caring for our child and to ensuring income. At least then if one of us loses our job or becomes unable to work the other syill has a viable career (in our admittedly low paid field), so we are less vulnerable as a family, and also as individuals.

Xenia you have some funny ideas about feminism love. i thought feminism was about not having men (the patriarchy) tell other women what to do. And that women should do what they want.
Your skewed idea of feminism is not about women doing what they want at all. No your idea of it is that women (the matriarchy and richer more well off women) telling other women what to do.
So that is feminism is it? Women telling other women what to do instead of the men telling them what to do?!
In that case nothing has changed. All that has changed is the GENDER of the person who is telling the rest of us what to do!

Your copy and paste mentioned Steve Donnison Xenia. So you copied and pasted that from the benefits and work site.
In going to take a big wild stab in the dark and guess that you didnt read any of the case studies while you were there.

42% of carers are men, that is a fact based on national statistics

List of names of those who have become ill or have died as a result.

www.urban75.net/forums/threads/list-of-those-for-whom-welfare-reform-and-cuts-were-too-much-to-bear.295951/

xenia

What are the best interests of the disabled, and where do you see this polite government having them at heart?

I'm going to keep asking, I'm afraid.

In reality, tories believe that the state should be small, that charities, religious groups and workhouses/prisons should replace welfare.

No... too simplistic.

What is welfare? (redistribution). How should it be structured? What impact is there on communities, when the state elects do provide things that the community used to provide?