Mumsnet in Sunday Times

[Xenia]

I cannot link because of the firewall but saw a reference to mumsnet - article about left wing people who send children to private schools.

one couple they referred to broke up their marriage because they could not agree on state or private schooling.

(When is it right to put family ahead of principle?

www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/focus/article1101910.ece )

Karlos: "I do think he is a bit pompous for continuing to live in "edgy" Stockwell where he knows damn well the state schools are poor. He could perfectly well move to leafy Richmond and go state but that wouldnt suit his self-image I suppose, arse of a man that he is."

Maybe he likes living in Stockwell?

Obviously if he had moved to Richmond, and sent his kids to state schools, someone would have accused him of using his money to buy a good state education, which is just as bad if not worse than sending your kids to private schools, blah, blah, and furthermore blah.

I would send my dc's to a private school IN A FLASH, although In principle I strongly disagree with having such a divided and unmeritocratic education system.

But that's because my dd is currently out of school, as the comp we sent her to couldn't meet her needs in any way, shape or form.

It's not just the teachers that shape a child's educational experience - it's their peers. Particularly in secondary school. My dd went to a socially mixed primary but once secondary transfer time came most of the high achieving kids disappeared off to private, church and grammar schools. DD was one of a very small group of high achieving children at the local comp, and IMO schools that have small numbers of children like DD generally find it a real challenge to cater for their needs adequately. We've withdrawn her and are currently without a school place as she goes in to year 9.

Would love to see how many people apply the same reasoning to those who support the NHS but who go private when the NHS can't meet their needs through lack of funding.

The same principles apply.

There's no such thing as a 'free education' anyway. We all have to pay for it through our taxes. It's impossible for things to be fair because there are huge variations in standards in state education (and always will be) and there will always be parents who will move areas or spend a fortune on private tutoring.

shagmundfreud I think you are spot on with your NHS analogy. My DP is long-term disabled and we frequently have to rely on the private sector for help. I think the NHS is a wonderful organisation but if we relied on them entirely he would be living a half-life because the care he needs is undervalued and underfunded. That being the case, how can I morally disagree with the concept of private education?

I don't agree with the NHS/private health analogy.

If a child's parent pays to jump the queue or for specialist treatment not available on the NHS it doesn't make it much more likely that that child will become top doctor, lawyer, judge,MP ,Prime Minister ,join other leading professions, as it does if paying for education,( other than them being treated for a life threatening condition which keeps them alive but actually the NHS does a pretty good job at that :))

As I have said before there are a disproportionate amount of privately educated children at top universities which isn't down to them all (agree there will be some)being exceptionally naturally clever, but they then are going on to the top professions/running the country.

Paying for a private health appointment doesn't confer the same advantage.

Xenia, the area with 800K houses someone mentioned was I think Lambeth. My SIL's mother lives there, in a council flat; my SIL grew up there in a (different) council flat, and went to the local comp.

It was NOT good.

High house prices do not a good comp make. The kind of people who can afford an 800K house can easily afford private school fees. But the people who actually attend the local comps in these areas do not, usualy, grow up in the 800K houses. They grow up in the social housing, which they rent, not own, and private ed is not an option for them.

You are confusing comps in middle-class towns/rural areas with inner-city London. There is a premium for living near a good comp, certainly, but it is certainly not in the realm of hundreds of thousands of pounds.

Even if you only have one child, living near a good comp will always be a damn sight cheaper than privately educating that child.

Clearly, the more kids you have the less sense privately educating said kids makes.

I mean, if you have 5 dds, say, it is just throwing money down the drain!

It is a lazy assumption that it is the school that is the reason why the chld becomes a judge etc - there is likely to be a correlation ( because high achiveing parents pass on their high-achieving genes to their offspring and high achievers have more moeny to spend on evertyhing, including education, but this does not it the cause.
And to run the country etc natural talent is irrelevant, it is the ability and experience that matters however tht is achieved.

Oh God I give up.....esp now 'ability and experience' has come up as regards running the country......:)

Hackney is not our best example. Howeve there are lots of others - people moving from inner London to Surrey where houses are expensive and using comps there.

Inner London is interseting because we imported in loads of posh bright 2/1 graduates under Teach First who are superb, for 2 years and they have transformed state schools because they have private school values. London has soared since. It's a wonderful achievement.

Xenia, I find some of your posts spot on, and some of them ridiculous!

And I don't find this a feminist issue. If we are encouraging our daughters to go into careers where they will earn a decent wage, we should be encouraging our sons too!

I think my academically average DS (in his class - I'm guessing his IQ would be about 120 when I say average) would make an excellent nurse. He want's to be an architect. He will have to work bloody hard to achieve this, and yes, I am prepared to help him every step of the way.

I personally think it's a social issue. I went to one secondary school which Xenia would (and has) describe as made up, for the majority, by "the under class". At that school girls aspired to be health assistants, rather than nurses, to give just one example.
So I do think a lot of it is down to parental exception - which comes with class, or where you are socially (I'm not putting this too well, to much ). Which explains to a certain extent why pupils from certain independent schools do so well in their own careers.

But for some (such as Xenia) becoming a midwife is a silly career choice. For others, it's almost guaranteed employment until retirement, and them a pension. Not bad if your dad has been a SE taxi driver/window cleaner, and your mum various jobs between raising children and caring for elderly parents.

It doesn't matter what school I send DS2 to, (or how much I pay for it) it's unlikely he will ever achieve the grades to make it to med school.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The alumni from DS1's comp is stunning (much better than the grammar school, which in recent years achieved the best GCSE results in the country).

"they have private school values"

What are 'private school values'?

I mean in REAL terms. How would they make a difference to the way someone teaches?

And Xenia, there is a comp 2 miles from where I live which is supposed to be the best in the UK (the only one to have got outstanding in every single category, hugely oversubscribed, gets good numbers into Russell group unis and Oxbridge). Children get in from my road, where you can buy a four bedroom house for £320K (and we are 20 minutes by train from Victoria).

I am happy to have a guesss and one of my son's friends is doing the 2 years Teach First now after getting his 2/1 from Bristol.

They will only have been in schools where children behave. They will have very strict attendance expectations. They will have really high academic standards as they came from leading indepenent schools which only take the brightest. So expectations all round will be really high compared with a teacher who went to her local comp and thinks her BEd from Middlesex Poly is some kind of an achievement.

They will favour competition, be prepared to mark things as wrong, give lots of tests and they will have an accent that employers can understand. They will make the children stand up when the teachers enters the room. teachers will be called sir. There are just a tiny part of the stuff you take for granted in good schools and indeed may well be the case in state schools.

Anyway it has massively lifted the position in inner London comps to have these people in it an dof course it's been a huge success for those graduates too and good experience for them.

LS, yes i would regard nursing as very low pay and tantatmouint to failure just as I am sure plenty of people who earn a lot more than I am and require their children to go to Oxbridge and do XYZ probably regard me as a failure. We all have others "better" than us. It's all relative. I have a friend who now earns £1m a year in later life. They had little mnoey when bringing up the children who went to state schools. The girl turned down a place at Oxford from her comp and is a midwife now. She struggles for money. Had she been at a priviate school she would have read medicine and not had all these money worries.

As for whether children are born or made they are a m xiture. If your son wants to be a doctor but is not clever enough then that's as it is - we don't want people who aren't getiting into any profession - people would die. HOwever if it is just he is bright enough but there is demand for places (and as the man who wrote the Outliers book found at Harvard any of teh best 100 who apply for each place would be as good as any of the 99 who are reject of that top 100 could have done find had they got in - and that luck is important) then if your son is in that category think tactically. He might be able to study medicine abroad in English - I read yesterday somewhere that can be done in the EU and then there is a right to practise here. There are plenty of ways to skin a cat.

Xenia, you seem to have misunderstood what Teach First does. According to the examples on their website, a number of their teachers attended the tough inner-city schools that their teachers teach in, and are then inspired to give back in return. So certainly not all 'born with a silver spoon' types. Anyone hoping they will teach plummy accents etc is likely to be deeply, deeply disappointed.

Anyone who regards nurses or midwives as 'failures' seriously is below contempt, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're joking; or hope that when you need a nurse, you are instead cared for by a banker or CEO etc etc on a huge salary who is therefore intrinsically 'better' at everything.

'when you need a nurse, you are instead cared for by a banker or CEO etc etc on a huge salary who is therefore intrinsically 'better' at everything'

If the banker or CEO came from a leading independent school, has a plummy accent and makes Xenia stand up when they enter the room, then she will feel that she is getting top class service.

I mean that in families where children succeed nursing is not the career you go in for and it's fairly low paid. That is totally uncontroversial in many successful families. I am more than happy though that others remaind in their own mediocrity. You cannot pay many sets of school fees or go on skiing holidays on the salary of a nurse and it is not that hard to qualify to do it so it cannot be up to much. (I suppose I will n ow find all 5 of my children go into nursing.... laughing as I type)

On the class of carers plenty of people want someone like they are to care for them. They might want someone who shares their interests, calls them by their surname et etc. it's a massive issue. In fact a grwoth market? We need a mumsnetter to offer carers for richer old people who match criteria whether that be someone to play piano duets with them or who understands about golf or whatever it might be.

Xenia - Your midwife example has millionaire parents so I doubt she is short of a bob or two if she wishes to go skiiing. So rather nice that, not being in need herself, she has chosen to give back to the community by doing such an important job. Sadly, like many vital jobs where people's reward is the knowledge that they are fulfilling a crucial role rather than just lining their own pockets,the financial reward is low - there is a reason these jobs are called 'vocations'. Not many people really feel 'called' to the bank, say, by comparison.

Luckily, most people have no interest in paying or need to pay for either private schools or skiing - I'm one who would need to be paid extraordinarily large sums to countenance either. (Actually, don't think anything would make me consider either - I do like mountains, but for views and hot chocolate at the top, not cold and broken ankles at the bottom...)

When you are old, Xenia, you will realise that what old people want when they look for a carer is someone kind, gentle, polite,efficient and honest. I don't think golf-playing is really here nor there.

'I mean that in families where children succeed nursing is not the career you go in for and it's fairly low paid. That is totally uncontroversial in many successful families. I am more than happy though that others remaind in their own mediocrity.'

'Florence Nightingale was born into a rich, upper-class, well-connected British family at the Villa Colombaia, near the Porta Romana at Bellosguardo in Florence, Italy, and was named after the city of her birth.'

'Nightingale laid the foundation of professional nursing with the establishment, in 1860, of her nursing school at St Thomas' Hospital in London, the first secular nursing school in the world, now part of King's College London. The Nightingale Pledge taken by new nurses was named in her honour, and the annual International Nurses Day is celebrated around the world on her birthday.'

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Nightingale

There was nothing mediocre about Florence, and her fame will last much longer than any banker.

Imagine a hospital where everyone was a doctor and there were no cleaners, nurses, radiographers etc etc - you would certainly not wish to be trated there. In hospitals, as in society as a whole, the system functions because all these professionals work together within their own area of specialism,to ensure the best results for the patients. The machine needs all the cogs, and there is nothing 'mediocre' about a nurse other than their pay - although I would agree wholeheartedly that they should be paid more, which I assume is your point.

"On the class of carers plenty of people want someone like they are to care for them. " If you ever end up being cared for by someone like you you will have all my sympathy, Xenia.
It may surpise you to learn that there are intelligent people - and I mean people with genuine intelligence, not people who regard intellect as something measurable by raw exam results and annual earnings - who choose to devote themselves to less remunerative pursuits because they find them fulfilling. The genuinely clever person is not necessarily fulfilled by paying for skiing holidays and school fees.

I would also gently suggest that, when you need a nurse or other carer, as you most assuredly will, laughing at them might not be the most, erm, intelligent thing to do? Somehting to think about, anyway.

Am enjoying the image of Xenia being cared for by someone like herself immensely.

Well may be once all the posh students from Bristol with a 2:1 (i.e not that bright, these days, I think you will find ...) have turned round all the state school oiks, there will be no need for private schooling.

Or may be not.......:)
There'll always be an excuse.