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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Father and Mother of 6 children killed in fire are arrested over Murder

427 replies

marriedtoagoodun · 29/05/2012 11:53

Breaking news is that Mr and Mrs Philpott have been arrested for the murder of their six children. I cannot believe this has happened. I pray that a mistake has been made. RIP children.

OP posts:
Virgil · 29/05/2012 18:32

My post was simply correcting the previous statement about murder and intent by the way. I was not saying that they are guilty just by virtue of having been arrested on suspicion of murder

MrsGuyOfGisbourne · 29/05/2012 18:32

sorry - cross posted

Virgil · 29/05/2012 18:35

Law school exam question MrsGuy! But yes murder involves mens era and actus reus, basically guilty actions and guilty mind. Manslaughter is the charge if the intent was not present.

FrothyOM · 29/05/2012 18:41

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YoulllaughAboutItOneDay · 29/05/2012 18:41

Difficult question MrsGuy - I agree with Virgil. The important thing though is that manslaughter can have exactly the same sentence as murder (depending on circumstances), so actually the distinction between the charges is mostly to do with automatic sentence levels and public perception.

All obviously irrelevant to the news story. But interesting as a hypothetical.

MrsGuyOfGisbourne · 29/05/2012 18:46

Interesting, thanks, and if I were a jury member in a case of this type would find it very difficult to decide, even tho' now you mention it Virgil, I do vaguely remember mens rea and actus reus from 6th form a hundred years ago...Tough job for the judge in guiding jury to proper consideration of evidence.

Olympia2012 · 29/05/2012 18:50

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Olympia2012 · 29/05/2012 18:51

If guilty, surely only one if them 'did it'

Funny how nobody has any sympathy for the mother yet.....

hiveofbees · 29/05/2012 19:18

If it comes to trial then we will be able to find out then what the evidence is.

Its not at all surprising that they have considered that the parents may be involved in this, given the statistics around children being killed.

hiveofbees · 29/05/2012 19:19

Olympia - what do you mean about sympathy for the mother?

Olympia2012 · 29/05/2012 19:35

Well, the mother who murdered her kids last month garnered nothing but sympathy. Everyone jumped to a PND conclusion and left her alone.

hiveofbees · 29/05/2012 19:39

Who was that?

edam · 29/05/2012 19:40

Horrible to think that the police may believe the parents were responsible.

edam · 29/05/2012 19:40

Olympia - the poor woman did have well-documented PND and a newborn baby. Very different from this case.

hiveofbees · 29/05/2012 19:47

I dont think that it is true to say that everyone jumped to a PND conclusion. and Im sure that the police didnt and that the courts wont either.

QueenEdith · 29/05/2012 19:49

In law, you are not allowed to not intend the obvious outcome of your actions.

So, for example, if you are in a fight and you hit someone once (intending to floor them), but because of the way they land, they suffer a fatal head injury, you are unlikely to be charged with murder (because you intended to harm, not kill); but if you'd stabbed them then death is a likely outcome, so even if the victim does not die, it may well be attempted murder. The nature of the offence will have been decided with CPS on the basis of the (not publicly disclosed) information gathered so far by the police. The question would be whether death is an obvious outcome to setting fire to a building where you knew there were people asleep.

Speculation on whether those people currently under arrest were involved, and why, is getting quite a long way ahead of the information in the news so far.

cfc · 29/05/2012 19:54

I have sympathy for the mother. It's the father who has been in the public eye in the past, and who did the talking at the press conf so obviously he's the one the media has focused on.

If they were involved in a joint enterprise, both can be found guilty. Arrests are usually made to allow extra protection for all concerned. It allows the suspects legal protection and the police the opportunity to search and stop any further communications between suspects and others.

Murder involves intent, intent to cause death or harm. Recklessness used to be used as a lacuna (any other legals out there remember the fire bomb thrown into a house on the route of a march in Northern Ireland that killed three boys, I think that may have led to change re: that lacuna and recklessness etc). But the law has moved on, good thing too. Manslaughter is when an unlawful act causes death, as far as I remember. It's been a while since I practiced criminal law!

As for speculation I agree that we ought to be careful. Each to their own and that but I remember being a twattish little pleb working in an office in London when Matthew Kelly was interviewed regarding an allegation of child sex abuse. I was a mouthy little shit, brand new into the office environment and put forth my view that he had to be guilty, no smoke without fire etc. I was put in my place (more gently than I deserved) by a lovely, level chap I worked with who said let's just see, basically. This came to nothing, he was the victim of an attempted sting, and I learned my lesson.

But, that's not to say others can't speculate to their heart's content. Just remember should you be arrested for a crime you didn't commit how you would like to be discussed.

RIP little ones.

YardBroom · 29/05/2012 20:01

But i don't see what is wrong with discussing your feelings about the case. We are not a jury, we are people talking amongst ourselves just like we would if we were with our mates.

My personal opnion would be that i find it very hard to suspect the father. Just from the things I have read about him. He clearly adores those kids, and that is well documented.

The mother I don't know much about, but have to say at the press conference she was not actually crying. This of course does not make her guilty, but at the time, i thought she seemed strange.

ibuyjaffacakesnow · 29/05/2012 20:04

I have sympathy for the Mother. She lost all her children. Poor woman. And nearly all of the sympathy is being directed at the father in the media. I hope she has got someone to talk to.

hiveofbees · 29/05/2012 20:05

We can discuss it, but we cant assume they did it. They have a right to a fair trial, if it progresses to trial.

YardBroom · 29/05/2012 20:05

hive - we are no jury

hiveofbees · 29/05/2012 20:10

Correct Confused
But they would have to find an impartial one.
People have argued in the past that the media coverage has led to a fair trial not being possible, because of the level of speculation.
Obviously this is just one thread on mumsnet, but I think that we all need to be mindful that they have not been convited yet.

seaofyou · 29/05/2012 20:14

oh I have not seen any of this?
Don't they always arrest the parents anyway? Ie the McCanns etc? Isn't it so they can question them seperately?
I had suspected a jealous ex or another relative ie older sibling...never benefit cause.
This I do feel is a male type of act...time will tell!
I hope the parents if innocent are not pressured into confessing because end of day they must already think their lives are over. Does anyone know if the parents have learning difficulties? Again I hope they are not wrongly forced to confess. It is going to be hard to get finger prints etc...I wonder if they were seen on CCTV getting petrol from a filling station?

YardBroom · 29/05/2012 20:14

well in that case, there should be a blanket ban on news reports of arrests, plus the police should not announce arrests even if they don't name the suspects, it pretty bloody obvious who they are talking about. And by the police and media reports you are going to get speculation and opinions.

hiveofbees · 29/05/2012 20:19

Yes, of course there will be speculation and opinions, but IMO there needs to be a bit of responsibility with that and no jumping to conclusions about things that arent certain.