Christians being discriminated against...

[Snorbs]

...says Lord Carey of Clifton, a man who was elevated to the House of Lords because he is a Christian.

He wrote to the European Court of Human Rights because he feels that Christians in the UK are being "vilified" by the British courts, as evidenced by the (very small) number of people who have been sacked for ignoring their employment contracts expressing their faith. He goes on:

In a country where Christians ... are in fear of reprisal or even arrest for expressing their views on sexual ethics, something is very wrong.

Or, to put it more succinctly, "How dare you suggest we should follow the law about not discriminating against gay people".

As far as I know, there is no law that you must obey the British culture, which is probably impossible to define.

Fair enough, claig but it does illustrate how claiming 'culture' as a defence can lead you on to shaky ground. It's an interesting debate - which part of a person's actions are dictated by faith and which by culture - but the point about adaptation remains the same. This is (still) a country where face to face interaction is the norm and the expectation. I would not want to see that change. What people do in their own home is their bailiwick, but out in public there are certain situations in which you cannot hide your face.

I would not want my children taught by a fully-veiled teacher. I would not want female police officers to be permitted a full veil - think what they could get away with in a demonstration, all they'd have to do was remove their numbers from their shoulders and they could do anything...

I've had to adapt to UK culture too - minor adaptations, but still. The Dutch tend to be direct to the point of pain - I've had to learn the fine art of verbal flannel in order to get things done, it's just how things work here. Without it, I'm perceived as brusque. Sometimes culture just has to bow to practicality.

Pointy, your English is absolutely brilliant, and if I may say so, better than seeler's . I would never have guessed that you are Dutch. The thing is what you want does not really count, it is only the law that counts. Teh phlebologist wanted to wear a cross but to assert that right she had to go to court.

Jack Straw said something like, he thought women coming to his MP's surgery should not have their face covered, but even he, powerful as he was at that time, had no power to compel anyone to do as he wished, because the only thing that counts is the law. And that is a good system, since the law deterimines the rules and they cannot be flouted.

I thought we had multiculturalism. I thought that was the be all.

Whether Islam says/or his culture allows for beating up his wife, its interesting that it ended up in a court of law. Did the wife agree to testify against the husband?

I think it would be difficult to define a British culture esp now but we do have laws that specifically relate to beating people. We don't at the moment have laws that dictate that Muslim couples submit themselves to therapy with christian counsellors or that Rabbis marry gay couples. And the only moaners are the christians.

I don't believe the christian church is being discriminated against or individual christians but I do think that the church is tearing itself apart from within.

Any Christian who witters on about wearing a cross or a wedding ring when trusts are concerned with infection control is an idiot.

Any counsellor who doesn't uphold the BACP Ethical Framework is not working ethically - being an actual qualified counsellor/psychotherapist requires you to work through your prejudices and I would even go as far as to say you are not an ethical counsellor if you still practise prejudice.

Naturally there are total twats in all professions - some of them are Christians.

'Any Christian who witters on about wearing a cross or a wedding ring when trusts are concerned with infection control is an idiot.'

LaurieFairyCake, I am not sure if you would wish to reconsider that statement, since it may inlcude Lord Carey of Clifton.

LFC: Yes, it doesn't give a very good impression of the training and management procedures of any counselling organisation that a bigot is allowed to progress to the point of being let loose on the general public.

While some Lords may very well be idiots, to the best of my knowledge Lord Carey is not New Labour.

I don't claig since all the whiners appear to be nurses or HCP's.

Lord carey may of course still be an idiot

Unfortunately a counsellor/psychotherapist is not a protected term so any numpty can call themselves that.

Any relationship counsellor working for a decent organisation should simply not be there if they don't want to work with all people who are in relationships.

Good summing up, Laurie. And speaking for myself I have met some atheists I wouldn't be seen dead with.

minimathsmouse under Dutch law it was not about the wife testifying, it was about there being evidence of a crime having been committed. The testimony of the hospital staff was sufficient to convict the man. But yes, she did testify, and got a divorce too.

I do agree that the (Anglican) church is tearing itself apart from the inside and that is a real shame. I remember the day the General Synod made the decision to allow women to be priests - I thought it was an enormous step forward and I still do. How can a ministry that demonstrates the calling to everyone irrespective of gender be anything but a good thing? To my mind that extends to gay clergy also, I see it as an expression of this God's love people always talk about. I do not believe in God, but if that is the light people choose to follow then it can only be good for the world we all live in.

And here we are, twenty-plus years later, with people still arguing about female bishops, male priests unable to 'submit' to the authority of a female bishop - I despair. So much has happened in the way of positive change and we bicker about small stuff like this.

Has anyone noticed that this thread has not degenerated into the usual mudslinging? I think we should all pat ourselves on the back. And claig - thank you! I have been bilingual for 33 years now, but I still feel that I have the English language 'on loan' and should take care to use it well. Lynne Truss is my hero .

Lord Carey is, indeed, an idiot- regardless of his faith or political persuasion.