Christians being discriminated against...

[Snorbs]

...says Lord Carey of Clifton, a man who was elevated to the House of Lords because he is a Christian.

He wrote to the European Court of Human Rights because he feels that Christians in the UK are being "vilified" by the British courts, as evidenced by the (very small) number of people who have been sacked for ignoring their employment contracts expressing their faith. He goes on:

In a country where Christians ... are in fear of reprisal or even arrest for expressing their views on sexual ethics, something is very wrong.

Or, to put it more succinctly, "How dare you suggest we should follow the law about not discriminating against gay people".

Are you saying that teh only way to spread infection is if open jewellery is held over open wounds? What about touching a wound by hand and then touching jewellery? Couldn't a patient touch their wound and then touch their metal bedpost or their cross and can infection be spead in that way?

I'm really sorry, I don't understand. And I'm trying ever so hard.

'And I'm trying ever so hard.'

Have a day off, or you'll do yourself harm.

Or you could try making sense? Just a though!

But I'm not as clever as you, so I ask for your indulgence if I may

I think claig is trying to ask whether other metal things, esp ones with lots of crevices or small parts, which move around hospitals could be considered infection risks as well. And thus whether the ban on jewellery is excessive in that context. And whether an assessment of the risk posed by jewellery compared with other (alleged) concessions to infection control measures (like arms covered below the elbow) would rate one above the other.

The stuff about people practising against their GMC restrictions just muddies the water severely, I think.

I had a look on the World Health Organisation website for any guidance on infection control in this area but haven't found anything except for information on hand washing.

I think the rules on health and safety state that nurses cannot have tongue piercings in order to prevent infection spreading. That piercing won't be held over an open wound, so I presume that there are other ways in which infection can spread.

Yes, thank you, tribpot, that is what I am trying to ask.

'The stuff about people practising against their GMC restrictions just muddies the water severely, I think.'

But the reason I brought that up, is because it would seem to be a greater "health and safety" risk to a patient than a phlebologist who had been wearing her cross in hospitals for about 5 years before she was told that she should no longer do so.

From what I remember of the the bible if you're a Christian you are called in the great commission to effectively spend your life sharing the gospel. There really isn't any room for this 'my Christianity is personal to me and no one else's business' Sorry but according to the bible you've missed the whole point if you're not telling people about Jesus all the time but claim to be a Christian. Jesus didn't command his followers to 'just think of me sometimes to make you feel cosy when life gets shitty' its supposed to be an eat/sleep/drink kinda religion.

But the beds and other metal things are, one hopes, regularly sterilised. The whole point is that infection risk should be reduced as far as possible. Hence no wrist watches, and no jewellery.

And anyone who works in a sector where they deal with people under stress is not allowed to wear anything which might put them at risk- police officers ties, for example, are clip on so they can't be grabbed by them.

If there's a no jewellery rule, there's a no jewellery rule. I can't quite see why this is such a problem. Were I of a cynical turn of mind, I would be wondering whether Christians are scrabbling round to find somewhere where they are discriminated against, inn order to distract from the wholly disproportionate influence they have in policy making, legislation and education.

'If there's a no jewellery rule, there's a no jewellery rule.'

But in a free society, newspapers like the Daily Mail and Daily Telegraph, and citizens have a right to question rules to see if they make sense. It would be interesting to see the scientific basis of this rule and what teh WHO recommends. What studies have been done and what the risk to 'health and safety' of crosses is as compared to other risks in hospitals?

Presumably the nurse who lost her job didn't think that the cross that she had worn for about 5 years was the risk to health and safety that she was told or she would not have worn it.

You would think that cleaning wards would be an absolute priority, but we do hear tales of dirty wards and dirty hospitals. The Women's Royal Voluntary Service is a fantastic organisation and its staff members are fantastic, but when you hear that Labour wanted to use them to help clean wards, it makes you wonder why non-voluntary organisations and staff aren't employed to do something as important to prevent infection as that.

'A new ally in the battle to clean up dirty hospitals was unveiled yesterday - the tea ladies of the Women's Royal Voluntary Service.'

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-81872/Voluntary-tea-ladies-help-clean-hospitals.html

Reading the article it looks like they were to be part of inspection teams rather than doing the cleaning themselves.

I'm finding all this a little odd...

As 'frequent flyers' in NHS hospitals I'm happy to say I like to see nurses and doctors without dangly bits hanging off them (ties, necklaces, bracelets) when they're bending over my DC and I get pretty pissed off if they're giving injections/taking blood without gloves which has happened - and I've objected. (My opinions and requests are usually respected)

As for hygiene - most hospitals are as dirty and disgusting as many of the people that use them and I've had to ask for a box of alcowipes to clean dried blood from trolleys DS has been laying on but accept that as long as he's not touching it (it's usually on the bits you don't lay on like the bars and chassis).

Florence Nightingale was one of the first to recognise that cleanliness and hygiene helped with survival and recovery. I expect that were she here today she'd have an even better understanding as we have some phenomenally advanced science to back her up.

Christians are not being persecuted in this country. Catholics, Jews, gays and disabled people were persecuted in WWII - there's no comparison with what happened to them and people being told they can't wear a necklace in work or they'll be a bit told off.

To be fair, DH has a phlebotomy qualification. The course was 2 days, so the loss of a "trained phlebotomist" is possibly not quite the tragedy claig is making it out to be.

The persecuted Christians remind me in many ways of the MRAs. As a group they are increasingly finding their position in the social hierarchy is no longer assured and they are striking out in confusion and anger. While militant atheism is a much less offensive term than feminazi, the tactics and reactions are still the same i.e. stunned disbelief that their pronouncements are no longer taken as gospel simply because of who they are. Like the MRAs, the martyr Christians are a very small subsection who simply refuse to believe that society has moved on, for the most part for the better of all, not just the privileged groups, and have left them behind.

Incidentally, the Christians on a bridge joke was originally told by Emo Phillips. It was the late great Bill Hicks who pointed out that if Jesus did return, the last thing he would want to see was millions of reminders of his hideous, painful death.

Claig, you do know that ties have been banned in a lot of hospitals too, don't you?

Telegraph link - tie ban article 2006

another article re Scotland that mentions ties being banned, as well as pens etc

I think it's fair to assume that items dangling from HCP's necks could spread infection, which is why they're banned. Not because Christians are being persecuted.

At present, there is compulsory worship in schools. A large number of Bishops are in the House of Lords with influence over legislation, and the Queen is the Head of the Church of England. There is no persecution of Christians, except in their own minds.

Interesting links, Suny. I didn't know that in Scotland, doctors will no longer wear white coats and ties. It would be interesting to know if our continental neighbours doing the same.

'However, Dr Michael Dixon, chairman of the NHS Alliance, which represents primary care trusts, and who wears a bow-tie at his GP surgery, said research showed patients had more confidence in smartly-dressed doctors.

"I certainly would feel less professional if I was not wearing a tie," he told The Sunday Times: "It is all right if you are an antipodean doctor but not in this country.

"This is political correctness rather than science."'

There's also a "bare to the elbow" rule for all staff in our local hospital - no watches allowed in ward areas.

Notice that the best place to turn for another persepective, is once again the good old Daily Mail, independent of mind and spirit.

Here is an article by a doctor, a GP in Glasgow

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2006075/Doctors-taking-ties-wont-stop-MRSA--cleaning-filthy-wards-WILL.html

If you do nothing else, read the above article from a doctor whose husband is a hospital consultant. Forget that it's the Daily Mail, pretend it's the Guardian, because there is some interesting stuff in it.

Here is some of it:

'For there is no body of evidence proving long-sleeved shirts or ties do any harm. Indeed, the Department of Health uniforms guidance agrees.
It is full of rules with very little science behind them. It starts by saying:

?There is no conclusive evidence that uniforms and workwear play a direct role in spreading infection.?

This is for seeker who was having dificulty understanding my question about metal bed posts and other metal equipment in hospitals

'The real problem with hospital infections isn?t long sleeves, long hair or white coats ? it?s a lack of regular, thorough cleaning of all ?touch sites?.

As cleaning in hospitals is now franchised out to private companies, ward sisters do not usually have control over what cleaners do and don?t do.

Door handles, drip stands, bedheads and curtains round beds, if not regularly cleaned, become a source of infection ? even to clean hands.'

I notice the focus on this thread is now all on the matter of crosses - I'd like to hear claig's point of view on the registrar who refused to conduct civil partnerships for gay couples, or the relationship counsellor who refused to counsel gay couples.

claig where do you stand on people refusing to actually do their job because of their faith? And if you think they are entitled to do this, how far would you go in his? Would it be OK for GPs to refuse to accept gay people as clients? For car dealerships to refuse to sell cars to a gay couple? Where would you draw the line? Can you see how dangerous it would be to permit this kind of special treatment for people of faith?

FWIW I also believe that if you are a Muslim and you choose to work at the checkout in a supermarket, you should not be able to refuse to sell alcohol and pork. This is not about discrimination, this is about not allowing people to discriminate.

'Dr Dancer did a trial comparing two wards, one cleaned normally, and one with thorough cleaning of all these bedside objects included.

On the better cleaned ward, the rate of new infection with MRSA dropped by more than a quarter.

Significantly, there is other research showing that overcrowding in hospital wards is a risk factor for hospital infections and leads to more MRSA.

?If I had to put my finger on one thing that would have an impact on healthcare infection it is cleaning,? she says. ?Comprehensive, targeted cleaning at the high-risk sites around the patient.?

So when politicians roll up their sleeves and smile for the cameras, we need to ask them what they are doing about cleaning up the real problems.'

And nurses who wish to wear a cross may be dismissed.

I'd also like to add that I used to work in Mental Health and ward staff were not allowed to wear necklaces or long earrings, exactly on the grounds that patients could use these to strangle or at the very least cause cuts and wounds. Clip-on ID badges only on the ward.

With the levels of alcohol-fuelled violence on A & E and therefore in other wards, where people from A & E are referred, a ban on necklaces and other risky jewellery makes perfect sense to me. It would be more needed in the UK than in other parts of Europe, because we have such a dysfunctional relationship with alcohol.

Actually you could of course simply read the DH's guidance document, which reads

"Although there is no conclusive evidence that uniforms and workwear play a direct role in spreading infection, the clothes that staff wear should facilitate good practice and minimise any risk to patients. Uniforms and workwear should not impede effective hand hygiene, and should not unintentionally come into contact with patients during direct patient care activity. Similarly, nothing should be worn that could compromise patient or staff safety during care, for example false nails, rings, earrings other than studs, and necklaces. Local policies may allow a plain ring, such as a wedding ring."

The DH also issued an Equality Impact Assessment which made no mention of the wearing of necklaces (the previous assessment may have done, there is a limited to how much googling I am prepared to do in support of this discussion!)

I would urge anyone who feels the wearing of the cross or crucifix should have been more explicitly considered contacts their MP and the Secretary of State for Health.