Nursery workers aren't educated enough...

[letseatgrandma]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17496323

What do you make of this? The suggestion is that poorly qualified/achieving teenagers tend to head towards a job in childcare or hairdressing whereas the report feels that standards of literacy/numeracy should be higher for those working with young children.

Presumably if the requirements for childrcare jobs change, the wages will need to be higher (and there is no money?!)? Where should the low achieving secondary school children aim to have a job?

France and britain have a very different cultural, social and economic background, hence the different approaches to 'standard french' or 'the queen's english' - the most obvious being that they chopped the heads off their royal family and are now not so hung up on the politics of the dialect of the ruling elite (I just invented that theory - what do you think?)

For about the millionth time on mumsnet I feel the need to point out that dialect (pron + grammar) varies by region and class background amongst other factors and it is impossible for a native english speaker to speak 'bad grammar' (the odd mistake always happens, even to the best of us). Many examples of this 'bad grammar' are in fact older styles of spoken english that have changed over time. Those of us who like the newer versions could reflect on when a new version is and isn't acceptable. Language evolves (unless you are french - tongue in cheek emoticon)

Yes, you just made that up, mercibucket!

The Académie Française and other institutions exist to debate, agree upon and propagate standard French usage. In England we have no such concept and believe that language should be more or less left to its own devices.

There are good arguments in favour of both approaches.

I do think all nursery/pre-school groups of 3-4 year olds should be lead by a qualified teacher. Obviously this is difficult for private nurseries to acheive due to their limited budgets - another argument for state subsidised nurseries.

Agree with soverylucky

To expect nursery workers to be highly qualified and motivated whilst paying peanuts... hmmm!

Exactly! if people want childcare workers to be better qualified then that will or should be better reflected in their pay.

I worked in a private nursery when I was younger I was going to college one day a week and was meant to be being assessed by someone in the nursery [but never was] the pay was peanuts. if it wasnt for the lovely cook feeding me lunch I would have starved.

I did care about the children though and did my job well.

Private nurseries IME were about maximising profit and corners were cut, it put me off sending my children to one anyway.

The nursery ds1 went to and ds2 will go to is run by highly educated staff. However, it is not a priority for me, I don't want my children to be taught French and learn times table aged 3! In fact I steer clear of Nursery schools which place a heavy emphasis on academia. I want a nursery that is nurturing and caring, I want the staff to have emotional intelligence and you don't need 5 GCSE's grade A to C to be able to respond to a child's needs.

If it is decided that nursery staff must hold a degree, the prices will go up and a nursery education will become the preserve of the rich. My son's nursery fees will be higher than my earnings when he starts in September if we start insisting that nursery practitioners are qualified to the hilt the fees will end up higher than both parents earnings put together!

All the education in the world doesn't make you good with children. One of the things I love about ds2's pre-school is that the staff are really, really good at relating to and teaching small children (teaching through play). Some are degree educated, others plodding through NVQs.

I do think functional literacy is important but beyond that the qualities which make them good at their job would be hard to assess through exams and coursework. Admittedly, most of the staff are mid-thirties or above and have been their years so the unmotivated-teenager phenomena doesn't apply but that's down to good interview technique rather than educational requirements.

But well trained and educated Nursery Practitioners don't have to push phonics and formal, academic learning on young children. They may believe passionately, as I and many colleagues I've worked with do, on learning through play, and be able to think of many ways to support children in this learning.

Those with less training may be "naturally" good with children - but I think if they show they have the skills to support children's learning they should be properly rewarded for those skills.

It is not unpleasant or sneering to point out that someone who is being unpleasant and sneering about others is on a sticky wicket if they aren't practicing what they preach.

I simply believe that for preschool childcare, there are many skills and attributes that are far more important than academic qualifications. That having academic qualifications is no guarantee that you will have the very specific set of skills required in caring for pre-schoolers, or that not having academic qualifications means that you are not going to be able to provide really good quality all-round care.

I also find the talk of people having the wrong sort of accents pretty off. At our preschool many of the parents have English as a second language, and DD2's keyworker is not of English origin. As long as someone speaks English well and has a good vocabulary etc then I really can't see the problem with accents. The same as I can't understand people (on threads on MN) getting worked up about a word spelt incorrectly in the report home. For me there are far more important attributes to look for in a person who is going to care for your young child.

Juggling our preschool doesn't do anything "formal" with the childen AFAIK. And I don't think I would be that keen if they did TBH.

Read my last post again Sardine ?

Yea I'm saying I agree with you. I don't believe that young children should be learning formally either.

I always find it a bit mind-boggling on MN when people post about their preschoolers getting homework.

I may have misunderstood you though?

Sardine, I said further up that I thought the way that nursery workers spoke was more important than their ability to read and write at a certain level, but I wasn't talking about accents or colloquialisms (sp?) - just about being gramatically correct in what they say. (Just in case it was my post you were referring to )

i for one would wish the government would either let professional get on with it or butt out of continually changing the guidlines for childcare workers.

i can understand that views and policies change but they really do change the goalposts quite alot and i doubt many childcare workers are really clear at what is needed qualification wise

they must understand though that people with higher level qualifications should not have to work for under £10 an hour

That's fine SQ - I just didn't read your post as agreeing with me that's all !
So, thanks for clarifying - I'm glad you do !

I completely agree with this and I am a nursery worker / nanny. A lot of the girls I've worked with have had a poor standard of written English.

I don't profess to be perfect but I remember an argument I had on a nursery nurse forum where they disagreed that nursery workers should know how to spell as they felt "it's not our job to teach them to spell"

I wasn't suggesting it was but I currently nanny for a gifted 4 year old who has not yet started school and I'd hate to think she'd be stifled in a nursery where her key workers were unable to spell.

Nursery staff need to be literate so they can reflect on the children's learning and development in an informed and considered way - not so they can teach the children to write in complex sentences or whatever ! Arghhhh !

Just because the children are learning their colours doesn't mean that is a suitable level for their practitioners to be working at !

Not expecting a child to write in complex sentences but a nursery worker is supposed to provide activities age and developmentally appropriate, and if my charge wants to write a sentence I want her to be supported to spell the words correctly.

But as you say, children's records need to be literate and legible for multi-disciplinary agencies.

But aren't pre-schools expected to teach young kids to write their name,know some sounds etc ?They're OFSTEDed and under pressure.

If pre-school is going to teach my dc how to write their name,learn sounds and read to them with expression etc I kind of want it done properly or not at all.

How informal can pre-schools actually get away with these days?

I haven't read all of the messages but I can relate to this a little. The monthly newsletter my son's nursery issues is littered with spelling and punctuation errors. Any letter that has an 'S' in it also has an apostrophe added it to it. I don't think of myself as overly pedantic but it grates when I read it.

However I just want my son to be happy there and to come out in one piece at the end of the day. He doesn't read the newsletter obviously but when I see large storage boxes sitting on shelves with large labels so the children can see them, it would be nice if they were labelled correctly.

The one that is labelled 'stationary' always makes me smile. Would love to say something but until it grows legs and walks away, will have to keep quiet:)

Also the records are quite complex,I've done them and as I said previously I have a degree and teaching experience.

When done properly they're quite a lot of work. Also the reports to parents are very important. You do need a good level of English to do them properly.

Pre-schools aren't expected to teach children anything really - the emphasis is on following children's interests and providing opportunities, so having the written word on display a lot, reading a lot of stories etc. For 3-4 year olds the effective practice for staff in writing is "Support children in recognising
and writing their own names" and "Encourage the children to use their phonic knowledge when writing consonant-vowel-consonant (CVC) words".

I have known nursery staff who would struggle with what a consonant is though, or can't spell fairly ordinary names. A basic level of literacy is needed. Records should be filled in fully and correctly - what if you need to write a report of social services that is later part of a court case? You can't have "Alex come in with a bruse on his head" and expect to be taken seriously.

I wouldn't want a preschool to be actively teaching reading etc -however that isn't the point-MrsHeffley and RitaMorgan have made the point on record keeping.
They should also have written plans and they should be able to read widely about child development and be able to communicate with the parents through the written word.
They need to be able to read to the DCs with expression, they can't do this if they are not fluent enough to scan the sentences before they get to the end of them!