Nursery workers aren't educated enough...

[letseatgrandma]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17496323

What do you make of this? The suggestion is that poorly qualified/achieving teenagers tend to head towards a job in childcare or hairdressing whereas the report feels that standards of literacy/numeracy should be higher for those working with young children.

Presumably if the requirements for childrcare jobs change, the wages will need to be higher (and there is no money?!)? Where should the low achieving secondary school children aim to have a job?

People who have patchier english skills will generally head towards more physical jobs, many dyslexics are generall more kinesthetic and creative. It has no baring on intelligence your brain just works in a different way.

However I agree that its too easy for people to get into caring professions, in parts of europe e.eg sweden people who work in foster care are trained to degree level, over here they need no training at all, its the fault of the country.

I'm amazed that so many of us became happy, normal adults considering our pre-school years must have been shaped by adults, nannies, carers etc who didn't have the latest knowledge of child development. I'm sure that in a few years time it will be deemed to have been a waste of time to have spent interminable hours as EY professionals observing, assessing, updating learning journals and planning 'next steps' because there won't be any discernible difference if we hadn't have done.

I usually have a lot to say LC ...

... but here, have a

"I'm sure that in a few years time it will be deemed to have been a waste of time to have spent interminable hours as EY professionals observing, assessing, updating learning journals and planning 'next steps' because there won't be any discernible difference if we hadn't have done."

Very much agree that the documentation and reporting are TOTALLY unproductive.

It's not the documenting of the learning that is important but the actual experiences that shape children's learning and development. The whole environment is important, including the people in it.

Yes, I'd agree with that insancerre - thoughtful, engaged, and reflective interaction with children has always made a big difference to their learning and development.

Sometimes observing it and writing about it can be a helpful tool for the adult, but the important bit is how you engage/interact with the child.

Some people are "naturals" but that doesn't mean we should under-estimate their skill

( I ate the biscuit Felt a bit peckish ! )

Wages will have to rise if education levels are going to. Where I work several degree/foundation degree qualified staff are on £15k, and that is in the public sector - private sector wages are lower.

High quality state-subsidised nurseries are the answer imo.

Agree Rita,
I earn a measly £6.20 an hour and I will have a degree by the summer. In October the minimum wage will be £6.19- I am unlikely to get a payrise (I recently had my first in over 3 years) so I will be earning a penny over the minimum wage for having over 20 years experince and a degree.
That's why I'm working my notice and going somewhere else.

I've had a very similar experience insancerre - working in pre-schools though I have a teaching qualification and diploma in early years.

RitaMorgan - "High quality state-subsidised nurseries are the answer imo."

No country has yet managed to work out how to pay for high-quality state-subsidised nurseries for the youngest children however. In France there are low-quality state-subsidised nurseries for children from 3 months. In Sweden there are high-quality state-subsidised nurseries, but not before 12 months of age. It costs too much to provide high-quality nurseries for babies to make it worthwhile - it's cheaper to pay parents to stay at home.

I think it's true and I think it's dreadful.

I was on our pre-school committee and we had dreadful problems with the written reports(had to rewrite them at times). Our pre-school is consistently Outstanding too.

There is so much recording to be done,reading of stories,reporting to parents in writing,modeling writing,teaching of early phonics etc it's just not good enough.

Personally I think you need 2 levels of staff with those not good enough in the written word/record keeping,story reading/phonics teaching etc but are amazing with the kids kept away from the written stuff and those that can do both do both but get paid for it.

Don't get me started on TAs in school.

I once had a parent who became a dinner lady and then a TA who just couldn't spell.I had to keep her away from the kids books without letting her know why I didn't want her writing in them.I learnt the hard way when thinking she was helping she corrected some spellings as the kids were writing in rough(many of her corrections were wrong so I had to rip pages out of their rough books).I'm kind of hoping things have changed in 15 years and the levels of literacy in TAs has gone up.

YYY re wages. Just seen an assistant manager role advertised as needing min of foundation degree, experience in safeguarding, experience of OFSTEd etc £7 ph.

I also think they should have o' level English and maths equivalent minimum.

I think that often poor educational attainment is reflected in how workers speak to children -eg, "I seen" or "I done" and that, to me, is a bigger issue than their actual qualifications and their spelling.

But pronunciation is part of spelling and grammar.

I've long been correcting the way my dc speak as it does have a big impact on spelling eg I fink instead of think(sounds cute but actually they will spell the way they speak a lot of the time).By the time they get to school it's intrenched.

If workers aren't speaking properly the chances are it will be apparent in their writing and subsequently their charges too.

There is the text speak issue too,a lot of teenagers will pretty much text spell a lot of the time,I seriously hope this doesn't happen in nurseries.

I've sat in other pre-schools and seen notices with lower case letters instead of capitals at the beginning of children's names on artwork on walls.

The written word is everywhere and if small children live in a non literate environment it's important that the written word they're exposed to in nursery etc is correct.

We all make mistakes now and again at home on shopping lists(even on here) etc particularly after baby brain but within the nursery/ school environment it's crucial that it doesn't happen.

I have Early Year Professional Status. When it was introduced, this was sold to me as equivalent to a teaching qualification (and I was led to believe that it would lead to a salary on a level with teaching - how naive I was!).
Salary for EYP: ~£15K
Prior to working with children I'd been earning a good whack in industry; I refuse to work as a professional (...with 2 related degrees) for £15K. So I did a PGCE. I now teach in a primary school and am on £25K, and rising.

Nursery workers are hugely underpaid and undervalued. Those on training schemes were sometimes only getting just over £2/hour. What sort of message are we sending out with this?

To expect nursery workers to be highly qualified and motivated whilst paying peanuts... hmmm!

I agree.Good quality workers should get paid more but fees will have to go up.

I don't think you they should get the same pay as a teacher though,you must appreciate how much more stressful teaching is.I've worked in both sectors and they are very different.

Funnily enough I'm now looking to going into work as a TA and I'm worried I'm too qualified,that schools will turn me down.

Wages will never go up I dont think in my lifetime. They have trained 1000s of staff members to have degrees and Early Years Professional Status and still everyone gets minimum wage. They will never make rises in pay, if anything they will go down many council staff nurseries such as SureStart have had their wages cut or been made redundant.

I know of nursery staff who were on 7.40 but now are back down to just over 6 pounds as the nurseries have been sold off and they only have a requirement to pay their existing wages for 12 months after that they can give their staff what they like.

MrsH I'm a qualified teacher but managed to get a TA job last year. However it was a one year contract and after it ended I am finding it challenging to get another, though I did have a (sadly unsuccessful) interview last week.
I'm thinking of trying supply teaching now myself.
So. I'd say it's not easy to get a TA post - so much competition apart from anything else - but I've heard of other qualified teachers doing this.

In nursery and for nannies/CMs one of my key priorities is quality of spoken English - not accent, grammar or dialect, but the ability to make themselves understood in clear full sentences complete with subclauses and a wide range of vocabulary. I really don't think that should be too much to ask

Where literacy and numeracy really does worry me is with Primary TAs, and in pre-schools.

mrsheffley I wouldn't normally pull out my pedant card but given what you are saying in your posts I think I ought to point out it is entrenched, not intrenched.

And I still feel the way I did earlier

DD2's keyworker is not of English origin. I haven't asked where she is from but she speaks with an Eastern European accent. Is this a problem? Of course not. She is brilliant with the children, professional, caring, intelligent, kind, affectionate but firm , and has been there for years.