Nursery workers aren't educated enough...

[letseatgrandma]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17496323

What do you make of this? The suggestion is that poorly qualified/achieving teenagers tend to head towards a job in childcare or hairdressing whereas the report feels that standards of literacy/numeracy should be higher for those working with young children.

Presumably if the requirements for childrcare jobs change, the wages will need to be higher (and there is no money?!)? Where should the low achieving secondary school children aim to have a job?

My daughter's key person has two degrees. And they seem to put a lot of effort into staff training and development - which probably explains their low staff turnover. I guess it's worse in a lot of other places, but that's why you need to shop around before signing up for a nursery.

Bonsoir - it's very hard to do quality nursery care for under 12 (or even 24) months. I'd be quite happy to see state funded nurseries for toddlers and over.

That's what I think, too, RitaMorgan. I'm not a fan of nursery care (though I am fully aware that many people don't have the luxury of choice in the matter), in particular when it is for many hours a week - PT nursery is OK, even if of lowish quality, if DCs are at home with more personalised care the rest of the time.

Sardine thats fine.I used to triple check everything in school,it's part of using English,you check,read and correct.It's a skill you train kids to do.I have an English degree but still slip up,most people do (unless they have a photographic memory).

On MN I'm relaxing,typing fast with kids charging about. Personally I don't get the pendant hysteria on MN.Sorry I'm not applying for a job,writing an article or teaching kids, it is a different environment.If I was doing any of the former my writing would be perfect.If we were all expected to produce perfect posts before pressing post I think 80% of us would never post at all.

But I is nowhere near E on the keyboard, so I don't understand your point.

If you can't spell a word then you can't spell it, and that's fine. But if you are posting about how awful it is when people can't spell and then...

I don't get this "I'm posting on MN so I'm not doing it properly" thing. Either you can spell certain words or you can't. I don't start mis-spelling words that I can usually spell just because I am on here. Typos are different obviously.

Now I'm not arsed about a pre-school teacher being a bit crap on the spelling front. As I have pointed out in my posts.

But having just read your posts back, and revisited the outrage at people who can't spell and how it is just utterly appalling, I really think the fact that you, in fact, can't spell quite obvious words needs picking up on.

Pot kettle and all that.

The thing which makes the economics of wages and qualifications in nursery work difficult is that it is not like other crafts or careers where as you become more skilled over time you become more productive (e.g. Able to do the same work in less time), and it is not like other jobs that can become more mechanised so that you need fewer people but they can be paid more .

The ratio between carers and children is fixed so it doesn't matter how qualified the staff are they can't look after more, the organisation of nursery schools is small so there isn't much scope for promotion through management, and the customers are highly cost conscious as the ammount they can afford for childcare depends on their own take-home pay.

It's hard to see how you avoid downward pressure on wages, and not so much emphasis on qualifications in this context.

And there was the little case of "pendant hysteria on MN" which I couldn't help finding amusing in the context !

Sardine I can spell,very well as a matter of fact(1 spelling mistake on MN does not a person who can't spell make).I have no outrage at people who can't spell,quite the reverse actually.

What I do have outrage over is young children coming from homes surrounded by illiteracy then going into an environment that hinders them further. For many children the only written word they will come across is in pre-school. Also to actually complete the EYFS records properly(which help your child)you need a good level of English,comprehension etc.

As you get older and when you have several babies your brain changes(well mine has).I now have to triple check words that came instantly. When I MN I'n not working,I'm relaxing,maybe drinking wine,watching TV etc.I will make the odd mistake,it's my free time and there are no degree level English rules re posting.

In a school environment it's entirely different there are no excuses.You check and double check if needs be. Many primary teachers will need to turn to the text books now and again as they cover many curriculum areas.As long as they provide excellent examples of their written and spoken English in school and my children's books I have no problem with that. Not all teachers are born with life long photographic memories nor should they be.Teaching is about far more than that.

Also I'm no longer teaching.

"Personally I don't get the pendant hysteria on MN"

Could I invite you to come and join us in The Pedants' Corner, where you will actually find a friendly and helpful group of people?

It is a source of some regret that pedant/pendant is also applied to those who are just picking on someone.

"What I do have outrage over is young children coming from homes surrounded by illiteracy then going into an environment that hinders them further."

I very much agree, MrsHeffley. There is sadly very little that anyone can do about homes where language and social skills are very poor, but institutional environments such as nurseries and pre-schools ought to do better.

Well reading this article on the Daily Mail website there are loads of the usual comments about capable, educated people would be bored by caring for children or 'playing with them', people who pursue childcare as a profession are often illiterate, failures at school, poor social skills etc. [BIG SIGH]

If its not bad enough that you only get paid minimum wage then on top of that people act like you are completely thick for wanting to do it. There are some good comments on there but as usual the usual stereotypes are being thrown about.

It particularly worries me given the amount of phonics etc pre-schools etc are expected to do now.If you teach that wrong from the start what chance have they got?

Also I suspect the children from more literate homes will have parents who make sure that their children are educated in an environment with good literacy. Parents with skills that aren't as good simply won't be as equipped to demand the same which isn't fair.The gov should be doing it for them.

Apologies for any mistakes but I have a banging hangover(can't be arsed to proof read) and the dc are just getting up.

Edith I'll check out your corner,as long as you're kind to aged ex teachers with a loooong case of baby brain.

EW - As a person with pedantry in my bones (also well trained by DH, and subsequently by DCs ) you must forgive me for smiling at "pendant" ?

And I wasn't picking on MrsH that much, was I ?

In fact I rather like the idea of re-naming your famous corner "Pendant's Corner !" What do you think ?

MrsHeffley - something that I have noticed here in France that is very different to UK is the insistence at école maternelle on standard French and correct pronunciation. Teachers are expected to speak in standard French and children are expected to copy them. Huge numbers of small children are sent to SALTs (often on the recommendation of their maternelle teacher) in order to correct seemingly quite small speech and pronunciation defects before starting to learn to read.

While I think that the French maternelle system is far from perfect, in this particular domain I think its standards are high and, more importantly, meaningfully high.

Interesting that they call it "ecole maternelle" too Bonsoir

• sounds gentle, and maternal, like the German "kindergarten" - children's garden ?

I suppose we have the same idea (though perhaps not as strongly) in "Nursery" now I think about it ?

The "pendant hysteria" was a direct quotation from an earlier post in this thread, and it is in turn a reference to an earlier thread.

it's not my corner by the way! It never made the long list of shortcuts to other boards, so certainly won't be on the new short form: so I'll link it this way for anyone who might like a look.

Being a pedant is not synonymous with being unpleasant or sneering. Those who might wish to put down another poster may however choose use of language as a weapon.

(see also "grammer police" [sic], although that one can be traced back to one particular Netmums invasion)

Leonie - That is bad practice then. Even if we know that a child has autism etc we cant suggest it to the parent as we arent allowed to state it. All we do is refer and then follow any advice by SALTs, Sencos etc.

Oooooo just had a look,not as scary as one might think and will be v useful with the dc's homework. How have I missed it?

Now have dd's piano/organ 'playing' going on in my left ear which is complementing my hangover nicely so will save any posts for the pedants corner when I can concentrate properly.

Bonsoir that is really interesting.I'm always amazed at the relaxed approach to children's speech here. I've referred pre-school children with what I thought was quite bad speech and there is a far more relaxed(they'll grow out of it) approach.It does impact learning to read but perhaps here it's a money issue ie only the extreme cases will get the large amounts of time.

Now being badgered for pancakes so will have to dash.

I think that in the UK we are very conflicted about accent and pronunciation and whether it is acceptable to "inflict middle-class values" (aka "enforce standard pronunciation") upon children with "regional accents" which are often (not always) "lower class accents". It's a social minefield that prevents us from addressing pronunciation issues in young children.