Should you be forced to work for no pay if you are terminally ill...

[MayaAngelCool]

...mentally ill, or disabled?

here

I am very tired so perhaps I am reading this incorrectly. But this seems to be horrendously cruel!

It's one thing if working is a personal choice for people in these groups. But this almost seems to have an Arbeit Macht Frei philosophy behind it - we will make the most vulnerable in our society work for nothing, because work is GOOD for you!

Vile.

Maybe that is what the Government wants Garlic, some of them may die but that is a sacrifice they are willing to take, sounds a bit like euthanasia, it will save the Government and NHS a lot of money too.

Lesley I wasn;t arguing, I was mostly agreeing with your main point!

And it;s usually me anyway, I am Peachy. I always get on your nerves. I also get cancer due to my time working for Macmillan fundraising dept, met a fair few people with very different stories behind them in fact.

It is only certain scales of incapacity benefit that is being stopped Just wanted to point out its if you were awarded benefit after a certain date , not that its right for people to be forced to work for benefit if they cant physically do a job but some can and choose not to , just because a person is disabled doesnt mean they are not capable iyswim

Sorry sanctimoany. I think like garlicfrother I just get frustrated about the focus on cancer to the exclusion of other illnesses. Like the complaints in the media of cancer sufferers having to pay to park in hospital car parks when in actual fact car parking charges have a negative affect on anyone with chronic illnesses making frequent hospital visits. There is a definite hierarchy of illnesses in the public's mind with some patients being seen as more worthy of protection than others with illnesses that are just as ill.

I find this whole thing horrifying. I don't know how we are all standing back and letting them get away with it and I can't believe people voted for them in the first place without thinking that this would be the consequence

Agin, people are not standing back, but this Government is in power not because we all voted for them - only 32.4 % of the people who voted wanted the Tories in power, that means 67.6% of voters did not vote for them - shame on the Lib Dems for joining them in a coalition, I wonder how many Lib Dem votes would have been lost if they had actively said they would go into coalition with the Tories before the election?

The only way to fight this scheme is to hurt the businesses that use it, and that has to be done by boycotting any business that uses these back to work schemes.

Boycott Workfare is a UK-wide campaign to end forced unpaid work for people who receive welfare. Workfare profits the rich by providing free labour, whilst threatening the poor by taking away welfare rights if people refuse to work without a living wage. We expose and take action against companies and organisations profiting from workfare; encourage organisations to pledge to boycott it; and actively inform people of their rights.
The tide is turning and following massive public pressure, we are pleased to say the following companies and organisations say they will no longer take part in workfare:

TK Maxx
Sainsbury?s
Waterstones
Shelter
Marie Curie
99p stores
Mind and Disability Works UK group. This includes eight major charities.
BHS
The following have suspended their involvement. We look forward to them confirming that they will stop involvement in any of the government?s workfare schemes:

Scope
Matalan
Argos
Superdrug
Oxfam have confirmed to us that they are contacting their stores to ensure workfare does not take place. We await a statement from them. Maplin have tweeted that they will no longer take part in workfare. As have Superdrug. Poundland have its policy under review. As have Pizza Hut. Age UK is investigating.

The following have stated that they are not involved:

Miss Selfridge
Mr Gleam have confirmed with us that they have never been part of the scheme.

Hold them to it! Ask in your local stores to confirm that no one is on DWP ?Work Experience?, Mandatory Work Activity, the Community Action Programme, Sector Based Work Academies, or Work Programme placements: all of these are forced unpaid work, or workfare schemes. Let us know if you hear otherwise.

The following companies and organisations are known to have used or be using workfare:

100+ Workfare Providers

List 1: Alphabetical list

List 2: Workfare Organised by a4e under Flexible New Deal (Holloway
Branch)

List 1: Alphabetical list
a4e
Alpha Stream ? Kent
Asda
ATS
BHS ? British Home Stores [1]
Boots
Burger King
Burton
Age Concern
Argos
Asian Star Community Radio LTD
Barnardos
Bookers Wholesale
Carillion ? Kent
British Heart Foundation
Capability Scotland
Cancer Research
DB Accident Repair ? Kent
DC Cleaning Sussex
Diamond Glass Medway ? Kent
Dorothy Perkins [1]
Envirostream ? Kent
Evans [1]
Finsbury Park Business Forum
F&S Interiors ? Kent
Go Response ? Kent
Helen & Douglas House Hospice ? Maidenhead
HMV [3]
Holiday Inn
Holland & Barrett
Gorgie City Farm
Greggs the bakers
JA Glover ? Kent
Jessup Electrical Wholesale Ltd ? Kent
JJ Vickers & Sons Ltd ? Kent
Kennedy Scott
Kent Flooring Supplies ? Kent
Kent Space ? Kent
Maplin ? have tweeted that they have withdrawn, awaiting statement
Matalan ? have suspended workfare. Keep up the pressure for them to drop it!
Mayhem Paintball ? Kent
McDonald?s
Medway Council
Medway Tyres ? Kent
Miss Selfridge
Mr Gleam ? Sussex
Newham Council
Newhaven Community Development
Olympic Glass ? Kent
Omnico Plastics Ltd ? Kent
Outfit [1]
Payless ? Kent
PDSA
Pizza Hut
Plumbase ? Kent
Poundland
Poundstretcher
PPDG
Primark
Process Plant Services Ltd ? Kent
RBLI
Regency Guillotine ? Kent
Richmond Fellowship
Romney Resource Kent
Royal Mail
RNR Performance Cars ? Kent
Saffron Acres Project
Salvation Army
Savers
SERCO
Scout Enterprises
Servest ? Kent, London
SHOC Slough Homeless
Signs & Imaging Ltd ? Kent
Slough Library
Slough Furniture Project
Southern Membranes Ltd ? Kent
Southern Metal Services ? Kent
southern Roofing & Building Supplies ? Kent
Stephens Fresh Food ? Kent
Superdrug
Swan Lifeline ? Windsor
Tesco
Topman [1]
Topshop [1]
The Range ? Sussex
Town and Country Cleaners Kent
Wallis [1]
Westvic Enamellers ? Kent
WHSmith
Whittingtons Silk Flower & Plant Centre ? Kent
Wilkinsons

Tens of thousands of unemployed people made to work without pay
www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/feb/15/thousands-unemployed-work-without-pay

Latest Workfare statistics: (15 Feb 2012)
www.consent.me.uk/statistics/

References:

[1] Arcadia Group
www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/feb/03/waterstones-ends-unpaid-work-placements

[2] Asda, Tesco, Tussauds Group, WHSmith, Royal Mail, Greggs?
www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmpubacc/uc1814-i/uc181401.htm

[3] twitter.com/#!/boycottworkfare/status/170166795670523904

?The names and locations of organisations participating in the Work Programme in the South East (Kent, Surrey and Sussex) Contract Package Area by providing mandatory work placements through the DWP?s prime providers G4S and Avanta Enterprise Limited and their subcontractors.?
www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/foi-3238-2011.pdf

?A list of those organisations signed up to provide work placements (4 weeks, unpaid) under the Mandatory Work Activity and Mandatory Work Programme schemes as referred by JCP and its linked provider (A4E & Maximus) in the Thames Valley area, listing each name by town heading (Reading, Slough? etc).?
www.boycottworkfare.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Thamesvalleynonameunredacted.pdf

Note: Those organisations, such as Age Concern, are listed without reference to locality of placement(s) as they are a National organisation. However, it is possible for placements to have been
organised on a local level without Corporate consent. Some organisations may be agencies that match volunteers with voluntary work placements, DWP Workfare Providers may be using them without the coordinating organisation or placement provider fully understanding the placements are Workfare.

List 2: Workfare Organised by a4e under Flexible New Deal (Holloway Branch)

Workfare Placements organised by A4e Holloway, under Flexible New Deal
www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/77563/response/196264/attach/html/2/1743%20Reply.pdf.html

4 ACRES
4 ACRES LIMITED PALMERS GREEN
ABNEY PARK CEMETERY
A-CLASS FOOTBALL FOUNDATION
BARAKAH MINI MARKET

BOOKERS CASH AND CARRY
BRITISH HEART FOUNDATION (Camden)
BRITISH HEART FOUNDATION (Crickle Wood)
BTVC
CENTRE WESTMINSTER
CHARITY SHOPS IN VARIOUS LONDON PLACES
DAYLIGHT
DOREEN HAIR FASHION SALOON
ENVIRONMENT AND REGENERATION
FINSBURY PARK BUSINESS FORUM
FRIENDS OF THE EARTH
HANDEL HOUSE MUSEUM
HARRIOTS
HIGHGATE NEWTOWN COMM CENTER
HOME START
HOMES FOR ISLINGTON
HORNSEY SCHOOL FOR GIRLS
KILTRO(UK) LTD
LINCOLN HARTFORD SOLICITORS
LIVABILITY
MARIE CURIE
NORFOLK TRUCKS
OXFAM BOOKSHOP
OXFAM BOOKSHOP HIGHGATE
P.D.S.A
P.H.A RECRUITMENT SOLUTIONS
RESTORE COMMUNITY PROJECT
SAINT MUGUS
SALIBURY MEWS HARINGES
SPRINGBOARD UK
ST. MARY PRE-SCHOOL
STRATEGIC PRO. OFFICE, ISLINGHTON
STUDIO 28 LIGHT AND DESIGN
SUNNYSIDE ECOLOGY CENTER

TRADE LIMITED
WESTMINSTER VOLUNTEER CENTER
WHITTINGTON HOSPITAL
Y.M.C.A.
YMCA GOODGE ST.
YMCA KENSINGTON
1′OCLOCK CLUB BARNSBURY
ARABIC CAREER DEVELOPMENT
ASDA STARES EDMONTON GREEN
ASPIRE FOUNDATION
BARDENS CAFÉ
BBC/subell leisure centre
BRITISH HEART FOUNDATION
CAREFREE KIDS
ESSENTIAL RUBBER
FINSBURY + CLERTRNWELL VOLUNTEERS
FINSBURY PARK BUSINESS FORUM
FINSBURY PARK BUSINESS FORUM (MARSHALLS
TEAM)
GARDENING
HACKNEY COMMUNITY COLLEGE
HIGH GATE NEWTOWN COMMUNITY CENTRE
HIGH GATE NEWTOWN COMMUNITY CENTRE (POOR
SCHOOL)
MARIE CURIE
MATRIX COMPLEX
OUR LADY HELP OF CHRISTIANS
OXFAM BOOKSHOP
PRAMP
RESTORE COMMUNITY PROJECTS
RICHARD CL SCHOOL
ROBERT BLAIRE PRIMARY SCHOOL
THE R.S.P.C.A.
WHITTINGTON HOSPITAL
WILLIAM FROST GARDENING
WORKING MEN?S COLLEGE
ANGLO-CHINESE ARTS COUNCIL
4 ACRES
A4E
BTCV
CAMPAIGN AGAINST ARMS TRADE ? Since this placement, CAAT was the first NGO to sign up to the pledge not to accept workfare.
CARE UK
EALING HAMMERSMITH & WEST LONDON COLLEGE
FINSBURY PARK BUSINESS FORUM
GARDENING
HIGH GATE NEWTOWN COMMUNITY CENTRE
HIGH GATE NEWTOWN COMMUNITY CENTRE
HOME START
HOUSE STREET CHARITY BOOKSHOP/GILLESPIE
PARK NATURE RESERVE
LIGHT PROJECT INTERNATIONAL
MARIE CURIE ? Marie Curie have since withdrawn
MEDOUET
OXFAM
OXFAM BOOKSHOP
PETER BEDFORD HOUSING ASSOCIATION
RESTORE COMMUNITY PROJECTS
ST. JOHN?S STREET LIBRARY/AGE CONCERN
Whittington hospital
WHITTINGTON HOSPITAL
YMCA CAMDEN
OXFAM BOOKSHOP
a4e CAMDEN
A4E WOOLWICH
BARAKAH MINI MARKET
CANCER RESEARCH UK
CITY OF LONDON CORPORATION
FINSBURY AND CLERKENWELL VOLUNTEERS
FINSBURY PARK BUSINESS FORUM
HARINGAY VOLUNTARY SERVICES
HIGHBURY NEW PARK DAY CENTRE
HIGHGATE NEWTOWN COMMUNITY CENTRE
LONDON FELD PRIMARY SCHOOL
MIGRANTS RESOURCE CENTRE
MONTEM PRIMARY SCHOOL
OUR LADY KENTISH TOWN
OXFAM BOOKSHOP
RESTORE COMMUNITY PROJECTS
ROYAL COURTS OF JUSTICE
SAINSBURY?S GOLDERS GREEN
SIMPLY ACCOUNTABLE
SUE RYDER CARE ? CITY OF ISL.
TINY TOTS NURSERY/HG COMM CENTRE
VOLUNTEER CENTRE HAMMERSMITH
WHITTINGTON HOSPITAL
YMCA
YMCA CHARITY SHOP

lesley that's hugely true.

I saw a post on the Daily Mail alst night wanting everyone with autism to be prosecuted for scrounging.

The great thing mind was that whilst a year ago that would have plenty of likes, it ahd none and a few hundred sillikes instead.

When even the DM starts to revolt, there is hope.

Tapse my family is Old LD in nature; South West, common there. I was aksed to stand, Dad did stand, my childhood is one full of leaflets and similar.

None of us would EVER vote for them again!

In truth I only did in the AM last election as I knew our candidate, the now Lord German, and liked him, and I am pleased he is still fighting against this as he helped ds3 enormously. They ahve lost a LOT of support amongst people I know though, people who could never see themselves voting any other way.

It's worrying really, I have a very severely learning disabled child who has profound and complex difficulties including medical, is she expected to work as well?

My late sister chronically ill too, she only managed to work because she had a very understanding employer who didn't raise an eyebrow when she had to have weeks and months off work. They are not that easy to come by but I don't suppose any of the Tory boys are aware of that, I don't believe they are aware of most things really.

If they take away the compulsory aspect then I don;t have a problem with people working for charities under the scheme; teh key difference is that a business exists to make profit whereas a charity constitution requires it to act in best benefit of the people it sets out to help.

But it is conditionality that scares me, also the4 fact it is FT placements- I think they'd help FAR more people with palcements they could do one day a week for example when their mum could have the kids / they don't have a clinic to attend / etc etc etc.....

Tailor it to people's CVs and you have a hope of some value.

Do hope Maplin have withdrawn, will make OUR lives far easier as they are a major supplier to us. Can only cut them out by going abroad which seems such a shame.

I am glad to see yet another thread on this subject, I started a couple erlier in the week and they did not get the response this one has, so very glad to see others as outraged as myself and others are.

The trouble about these policies and it is typified by what was said up thread about cancer is that making rules that blanket conver everyone with a particular diagnosis is problematicle. It becomes down right unworkable when you make it a blanket cover for an entire social class i.e. the disabled. I am sick of DM and their friends/neighbours/work mates/drinking buddies/ who have this or that and still "manage" to work, as if one person can do it we all should. But ofcourse it fits with the medical model of disability and also the triumph over tragedy that our society loves to hear about. Do not bother trying to tel people the realities of getting an employer to take you on if it will mean frequent time off, or days where you are more of a hindrance than a help, or the added equipment, or the different way work needs to be structured, after all crips and cripesses "If Stephen Hawking can work, so can we!"

We used to have two separate mechanisms for really helping impaired people in to work, the first was the "DRO" based at the local job centre. These Disability resettlement officers were specialist advisers who took much more interest and could to some extent offer a tailor made set of ideas for the individual. The 2nd was the Access to Work scheme that offered a range of services including a full assessment of the environment and the equipment needed to undertake the job that the person with the impairment was doing. This assessment was done by a OT. Access to work also offered money to pay for both equipment and adaptations, one workplace I was in got full automatic doors, something like 6 thousand pounds worth. They also paid for taxis to and from work.

However and long before austerity was a word any of us could spout at the drop of a hat, the good old market forces came to play. DRO's were replaced by work placements that were nothing more than cheap labour and very little of that. A4E got the major part of those contracts and forced many people off benefits through sanctions. Access to work was consistently run down until it now offers virtually no help and you have to be in a very rigid set of parameters to get help. In part access to work were flawed but not least by being so bloody burocratic that it drove me to have a breakdown, but they were the difference for many people.

The default and I would suggest the model we need is a return to the assumption that once past a reasonable test, that all disabled people should be given benefits equal to the NMW, and shed loads of money put back in to specialist DRO and job centre services that are checked and publicly accountable, and not performance related. For those obsessed with privatising stuff then privatise access to work but make it do what it used to, enshrine the funding in law, and give it the power to force employers to comply with it's recommendations.

I have lots to say about UNUM who in effect have been shaping welfare policy since 1993, and who are proven liars and cheats engaged in denying disability benefits to millions of Americans. They also have a very strong link to ATOS who as some of you will know run the assessment services for the DWP. If people want I can post more on that but in the meantime have a look at this
blacktrianglecampaign.org/

I have problem with the fact it's not 'work experience' too but a work placement in which they take the place of a paid member of staff, one who will be on minimum wage with no breaks paid.

I am a Community Psychiatric Nurse and have been to a number of theseassessments with patients and they are a total fucking joke. They just ask stupid questions about a "typical day" which is pointless in conditions like serious mental illness which can fluctuate dramatically. The first one I attended was just after they came in and was with a lady who had just come out of hospital after a 4 month admission under the mental Health Act. She was transferred between 3 different wards due to her behaviour being so difficult to manage and was seen overall by 11 psychiatrists, including 3 Consultants. The "assessment" lasted 16 minutes and the report that came back stated that the examiner "respectfully concludes that this person does not have a serious mental illness". So, someone with no particular background in mental health can over ride the professional views of 11 mental health specilaists after a 16 minute assessment?? This opinion appeared to be based on the belief that people with serious mental illness must be frothing at the mouth and waving an axe around ie you can't possibly have Schizophrenia if you're smartly dressed and wearing make up.
Within the trust that I work for, 92% of appeals are upheld. The waste of time and money that goes into these assessments and then appeals is a disgrace.

upsylazy where i volunteer A girlwas telling she had been called in for a back to work interview and she has a number of issues and some MH problems , she was distraught and confused as she didnt know if she was going to loose her benefit be placed in somewhere on a work trial she was all over the place didnt know what to do I do think they are targetting the wrong people tbh ,

Disgusting Upsy.

If ds1 (HFA, a teen soon so getting to ATOS age) ahsn;t improved we hope he will work from home for himself, he has an arty talent in a marketable area.

if not, or if we cannot care for him, he will undoubtedly fail ATOS as he seems very well behaved, well rpesnted, a bright and affable young man.

Until he melts down and hurts someone.

Or as school put it (before he went into a SN Placement) 'When he grows up he will be a millionaireo r a murderer'.

So very true.

Pity the poor bastard who has to work with him; I love him, he's my boy and I will always care for him as longa s I am able and he does not seriously harm my other disbaled children (the likely tipping point): no random emplyee should be placed at risk because of an ATOS Idiot.

Sorry to seeem as if I equate MH with violence: know better, just touching on ds1's personal hsitory and in no way implying that is common.

It also bears repeating that claimants are not allowed to volunteer for charities UNLESS they were placed there on a workfare scheme.

Which kind of takes the "voluntary" out of the equation, along with the "big society" I would suggest.

Underpaid benefits- £11bn

Fraudulently claimed DLA- £60m

" " ESA £20m

Yep ytheya re targetting the wrong people. Their own stats show it!

Maybe if everyone entitled claimed what theyw ere due and ATOS were gummed up they might actually think?

When i worked for homestart some of our best volunteers were people on IS or JSA.

That's sad

Actually claimants are allowed to volunteer - there are many myths around this that people believe, including job centre staff

Lesley, I read a DWP document only the other day that specifically clarified the point. I will try and find it later but need to rest now.

I volunteer for a charity people can volunteer it is allowed, or is this coming in ? i have volunteered for years DWP knows this and have never said i cant

Sancti, if my experience is anything to go by, the people who judge the appeals seem quite sensible and, like I said, virtually every case we've appealed has been won and, to be fair, some of the judges look genuinely embarassed by the ridiculous decisions that have been made. Another thing that infuriates me is that these reports always say "we have taken the person's history into consideration" which is bollocks because they don't ask for any history, they literally just give a cursory glance as to whether the person looks "normal" which, as you know, you just can't do with complex mental health problems.

Upsy i think in my field (ASD) something like 75% of appeals are successful if there is appropriate support, although as legal aid is being withdrawn less people will be successful.

So a successful appeal for most people I with ASD at this level is going to rest upon whether they ahve family help I think- as a generalisation a majority of people with ASD at a non working level would be chronocally ill equipped to take on that task almost by definition of diagnosis.

It's almost a deliberate trap!

Oh poor man [[http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/9550982.Benefits_man_found_hanged__inquest_heard/?ref=twtrec here[[